Babbles Nonsense
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Babbles Nonsense
From Burnout to Balance w/ Meenu
#167: When was the last time you sat in your car, unable to walk into your house because you knew more responsibilities awaited inside? Or found yourself unable to enjoy simple pleasures because your mind kept racing with work-related thoughts? These are just a couple of the warning signs of burnout that we explore in this deeply personal and timely conversation.
Drawing from our experiences as professionals in high-burnout fields—nursing and trauma coaching—we pull back the curtain on what burnout really feels like from the inside. The statistics are staggering: 30-60% of nurses experience burnout (with ER and ICU nurses at highest risk), while 40-60% of mental health professionals face similar challenges, particularly those working with trauma survivors.
We dive into the physical manifestations of burnout (chronic fatigue, sleep disturbances, frequent illness) alongside the more subtle emotional signs that often go unrecognized until they've reached critical levels. Perhaps most revealing is our honest discussion about compassion fatigue—that moment when dedicated professionals find themselves thinking, "I don't care why you're here, I just want to go home," and the shame that accompanies such thoughts.
Cultural factors play a significant role in how we perceive work and rest. While American culture often glorifies overwork, we contrast this with perspectives from European and Mexican work cultures that prioritize boundaries and balance. This conversation explores how these cultural narratives shape our personal expectations and contribute to burnout cycles.
Most importantly, we offer practical, tried-and-tested strategies for both preventing and recovering from burnout: controlling workload, prioritizing recovery, establishing clear boundaries, making career adjustments when necessary, and seeking support. The oxygen mask principle becomes our north star—you must secure your own wellbeing before effectively caring for others.
Whether you're already experiencing burnout symptoms or want to prevent them, this episode provides validation, perspective, and actionable steps to reclaim your energy and passion. Remember: setting boundaries isn't selfish—it's essential for sustainable service to others.
Find Meenu here:
https://www.instagram.com/transcendencebymeenu/
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What is up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Babbles Nonsense podcast. I have Meenu here back today and we are talking about burnout. This topic came up for both of us and I since I was recently talking about my time in the ER. I wanted to talk about how I had burnout experience in a career and she was talking about the same thing and she had posted on Instagram recently that she was experiencing some burnout as well. So this topic is mostly centered around career, but it could be related to life or friendships or whatever you may be having burnout in. So if you think you may be experiencing burnout or you just want to know a little bit more on the topic, this episode is definitely for you.
Johnna:All right, guys, welcome back to another episode of the Bible's Nonsense podcast and transcend into wellness. We have it mean you back today and to continue on my ER journey that I have been on in the past few weeks with my podcast, reminiscing mean, you had posted on her Instagram that she had been burnt out recently and it reminded me of my burnout experience as an ER nurse. So we wanted to talk about just burnout in general, kind of in the workplace. Maybe. Mean you have seen this with some clients and we're going to talk about what burnout is and then mean he's going to give us some strategies to kind of get us through it. So I'm going to try my best. Well, you know, just as you would coach yourself or you would coach someone else like how you would coach them through it.
Johnna:And I will also like say what I did for my burnout, like we'll kind of give our own opinions on what we can do to reduce that burnout.
Johnna:But I know that we both work in fields that are in high, extreme burnout rates. I was just talking to me and you before we started about the statistics. So me and you's in the coaching field, I'm in the nursing field and they're very high burnout rates. So a nurse, it says statistically, is 30 to 60 percent of nurses burnout and it's usually dependent on where you're working as a nurse and the two highest are ER and ICU nurses, because those are very high stress environments and they have higher burnout rates. Those are very high stress environments and they have higher burnout rates. And then, as a coach, it says that that is a 40 to 60 percent of mental health professionals experience burnout and it's because it's high risk specialties, including trauma therapists which is what mean you do does crisis counselors and those working with high need populations such as veterans, ptsd patients, trauma patients. And then it says the reason why mental health professionals have burnout is because they end up with compassion, fatigue, high caseloads, frustrations and emotional exhaustion from constant exposure to trauma.
Meenu :So you pretty much nailed it. And I was talking to another friend and I was like saying, oh, john and I are going to do a podcast of burnout. And then she was like this is literally the perfect time, because I've been burnt out. I'm like, oh my God, okay. So maybe a lot of people in the collective feel burnt out. So we were like let's just actually like talk about it, because when we talk about it we normalize it so people don't feel like they're alone experiencing all this. Right, give some solutions that like work for us. So here we go.
Johnna:All right. So I want to just start out by saying what burnout is. So burnout is a state of physical, emotional and mental exhaustion that often results from prolonged stress. So that is the actual quote, unquote definition and then some signs to kind of watch for, both in work and life that would make you like if you're experiencing these, it could be burnout. So if you're like what is wrong with me? You know I don't feel like I have a high stress job, but maybe you don't have like a super high stress job but maybe it's moderately stressful, but then you're also a mom and you have to go home and do that, and then you're dealing with marriage stuff.
Johnna:So there are other reasons why you would have burnout. But these are the signs to look for. So physical signs would be chronic fatigue, sleep disturbance, frequent illness, changes in your appetite, so any of those things. So when we're talking about fatigue, you're talking about feeling drained or exhausted. Sleep disturbance can be anything from difficulty falling or staying asleep or sleeping too much, frequent illnesses such as colds, headaches, muscle tension. So if you're catching a lot of colds, that's usually because your body's under a lot of stress, and and then, of course, changes in appetite would be overeating or losing your appetite unexpectedly.
Meenu :Right, right, I feel like I resonate with so many of that Right and a lot yeah.
Johnna:And I'm going to read the emotional and then let's talk about what we are experiencing ourselves. So the emotional signs could be cynicism or detachment, which means you develop a negative or indifferent outlook toward work or personal responsibilities. You have decreased motivation, which means losing interest in activities you once found fulfilling. Difficulty concentrating, struggling to focus or complete tasks, both at work and in everyday life. And feelings of inefficiency feeling like you're not accomplishing enough, no matter how hard you try. Inefficiency feeling like you're not accomplishing enough, no matter how hard you try. So to me, when I was experiencing my burnout, it was more emotional, some physical, but more emotional.
Johnna:Oh yeah, and then there's the behavioral signs. I forgot to read that to y'all Withdrawal, so pulling away from social interactions or hobbies, and then increased irritability, having a shorter temper and feeling more frustrated or overwhelmed. That was me all the way. So, that if you're experiencing any of those would or could be burnouts from either your job or life.
Meenu :Right, right, no, absolutely. And I feel like for me it's mostly, you know, physically getting burnt out usually doesn't happen to me because I like I work out but I do like moderate exercises. I don't do heavy, intense workouts, so that's not a possibility for me. But because of the line of work that I'm in, I am listening to people. You know I'm a life coach specialized in trauma coaching. So I listen to people talk about traumas overcoming, even though I give them tools and methods to like overcome their traumas and even though they feel so much better towards the end of the session, and that's very rewarding.
Meenu :In spite of that, I feel like sometimes, you know, I get burned out and I get ambitious sometimes because I'm like, oh, look at these other people Like. I know a therapist, a friend, who like sees seven clients a day and I'm like seven a day and maybe I should extend it, because I see three, three is my sweet spot. If I do four, I'm pushing it. Five, it's like, oh my God, I'm definitely burnt out. So I started pushing my limits. Obviously, comparison kicks in and you're like, if they're doing it, we can do it. So I started pushing the limits a little bit and God not for me, can do it. So I started pushing the limits a little bit and God, not for me. And then I later discovered that that therapist only works two days a week. I didn't know that.
Johnna:So in comparison, yeah, you're, you're seeing the same amount of patients. You're just doing it in five and she's doing it in two. So yeah, yeah. So, comparison is the thief of joy 100%.
Meenu :it is the thief of joy. And for me, like I am very I'm 95, let me put it this way 95% of the time I'm highly, highly self aware. So but when I'm coaching, like when I'm actually talking to a client, I really literally have the best time of my life, like I'm actually doing something I really really enjoy. So I never saw burnout as something as a precaution that could happen to me, because I'm like I thought burnout only happened when people were exhausted, probably didn't feel aligned with their job, yeah, their job, that's.
Meenu :That's, that used to be my perception, but then I love what I do, so I'm like I never saw myself feeling just burnt out, and for me it came in the form of like I can't get out, I can't do anything. It's like TikTok was not feeling like a burnout, but talking to anybody not just anybody felt like it was a lot.
Johnna:And I can relate to you in a lot of ways, like, no, I don't give people advice per se, but when, like I worked in the ER, working in trauma, because it was physical trauma that I was seeing, but it was also emotional trauma, like you have to deal with the families of loved one who had just passed away and stuff like that, so in the moment, like of course I loved what I did and in the moment I was able to do my job, just like you are able to still give advice, you're still able to, like coach people through their trauma in the moment, but when you leave you don't realize how much that took from you that day. And it's not that, it's not that you don't like, it's obviously you're listening to trauma all day long, like one would think, which we don't because, number one, we're both type a well I don't know, are you type a?
Johnna:I don't know, I feel like I switch I know because, like, sometimes I'm like you're type a and then sometimes I'm like you're not.
Meenu :If I'm being really transparent. Women you know this. I think it's mostly women listening to this. In my follicular face and my ovulation face, I'm type A. In my luteal face and menstrual face, I'm type B.
Johnna:Well, because I was just sitting here thinking I'm type A all the way. Like anyone who knows me knows, I am very high strung and I want things in a particular order. I should have been an engineer or a mathematician because I am very stringent and nurses typically aren't. Nurses are very like all over the place. I'm very like no, I like order, I like paperwork. That's probably one of the reasons why my job drives me insane. But just listening to trauma all day, like in you do I, don't, do you do eight hours a day?
Meenu :So I work from 11 to seven. So I would say yeah. I'm just sort of 11 to seven, yeah, and then I was doing 13 hours.
Johnna:So, by the end of it. So I tried to get all three of my shifts in a row, so like just doing 13 hours three days in a row, get it over with and then have four days off. On that first day off and I'm sure a lot of nurses can relate to this Don't talk to me, don't look at me, don't text me, don't call me, like I cannot have the bandwidth. It's more, it's literally. I am a slob kebab on the couch watching reality TV. That doesn't take any mental clarity to even think about, because I can't even form a thought for a TV show.
Meenu :I totally agree, like sometimes, like I have like a good social group in Nashville and sometimes they're like oh, let's have a game night and I'm like the first question is, is it brainless? Because if it's brainless I'm down. If I have to use my brain because I do that all day, I don't I'm not not right now.
Johnna:Like another Right. No, I can relate to that a lot and I know a lot of my nursing friends that no-transcript that's classic exhaustion yeah, and then like sitting in the car, in the garage, even though I don't have children, which I heard a joke on TikTok the other day. It was hilarious. It was this woman, she's a mom. She was like if you have kids? She was like you don't know parenting until you sit in the car saying I'm not going in that house, oh yeah, you know that's so interesting.
Meenu :I don't have children, but I sit in the car all the time I do.
Johnna:I sit in the car and I'm just like let me just get the capacity to get in this house, because once I get in this house, I know I have more to do. I think that's what it is like. It's like that I know I have more to do. I think that's what it is Like. It's like that whole, like there's more to do once I walk in this house, like cleaning, cooking, doing all the things despite not having a family. So it's just sitting in the car, just be like, okay, I can sit here and for this moment in time I have nothing to do, nowhere to be right.
Meenu :No, that's actually really honestly very priceless, like that moment. And then you know, when I go to bed, like in the night, like when I'm alone, at that moment, like nobody to say anything, nobody disturbed me, price or less, it's right, oh, so good, so good. And for me, like I've realized that I feel more emotional burnout, like I feel that I feel physical burnout, and this is on the days, even when I do like a lot of workout, I can still come back home and I can meal prep and I can clean and I can do all these things and I'm still okay. But something about holding a conversation after a long day that for me seems more impossible than doing physical stuff.
Johnna:Yeah, I agree. Well. So, yes, I think it is because, like, when I think like, sometimes I'm like, maybe I should have just done something that with manual labor, like, I think that, like I was like, maybe I should have went into construction instead of like, because I feel like man, like, and I again nobody judged me for saying this but sometimes I'm like, sometimes I feel like manual labor would be easier. It's almost like when I say it's hard, like like when we talk about abuse, when it's talking about physical versus emotional abuse. Physical abuse sometimes is easier to get over, like, quicker to like. I'm not saying it's again, I don't want anyone to come after me. I'm not saying like it's easier to get over. I'm just saying like, you recognize it right, like it's there, you have a bruise you recognize it.
Meenu :You're like, okay, never again moving on, yeah, and then you recognize that it's very toxic, like right, like easier. No, it's such a big, it's so taboo, it's so no, like you know. You're like, absolutely, they crossed a line that I could never imagine. So there's like I feel like there's faster closure. So yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. But with emotional abuse, the closure is not there, especially if your self-worth is attacked and you don't have a sense of self.
Johnna:Oh my god, it's and it's slow, like it's kind of leaks in slowly over time and you don't recognize it, and that's, I guess that's why I'm trying to like use an example where people would be like, so like I'm, I think about like physical labor versus emotional labor, like you don't recognize it and then it happens slowly over time. When it's that Like you don't recognize it, and then it happens slowly over time when it's that emotional, like you don't recognize the signs. Like I didn't recognize sitting in the car was something that maybe I should be paying attention to. I didn't recognize that sitting on the couch, you know, for 24 hours after my shifts in the ER, was something I probably should have paid attention to, like oh, you don't want to listen to music, probably should pay attention to that, and so I didn't recognize the signs, kind of, and so like. Like I would like physical labor. Like if you're out on a job physically laboring and all of a sudden you feel sharp pain in your back, you know to stop.
Meenu :That's actually really true. You'll take a break, you'll stretch your body, you'll go drink some water Like I don't think they teach anything like that or to pick up cues for like emotional burnout looks. I just yeah, it's just amazing. How not amazing, but like crazy. You can call it amazing whoever's type A, but for me I think the burnout and normalizing burnout and being okay with burnout, it's also highly cultural sometimes.
Johnna:Yes.
Meenu :I really do feel like here people are always like do more, do more, do more, do more, don't stop, don't stop, don't stop, go bigger, go bigger, aim for the stars. And on one side, for ambitious people like I'm definitely very ambitious and I know you're ambitious Like for ambitious people it's like amazing, right. It's like, oh, we have a society that like helps us, you know, step into our power and keep going, but at the same time, when you have burnout, then you fall into judgments, like I used to do a lot which is like, oh, look at her doing more. Like you know I can do that, I should be able to do that. But then we don't take into account each person's emotional capacity is different. The energy level is different. Their bandwidth is different. For example, people that are used to listening to trauma and used to listening to negative stuff all the time may probably have more bandwidth than I do.
Johnna:Yeah, and so, like to add to that, like gosh, I have one of those brain moments where it just like literally left me. I hate when I do that, it will come back to me, but I did. I was looking up the like typical burnout statistics in nursing versus mental health professionals and so, like a typical career of an ER nurse is what I did. The average nursing career length is five to 10 years and mine was 11 years. My thought just came back to me. I knew it would. So let me, I'll finish this statistic and then I'll bring it up. So five to 10 years for ER nurse before burnout or transition to a different role. So I was there 11 years and then, of course, the pandemic happened and that, literally that was what did it for me, like that took it over the top. And then for healthcare professionals, it says a typical career length is 10 to 20 years before burnout starts. But it says some do leave within the five to 10 years due to emotional exhaustion.
Meenu :Oh, that makes so much sense, yeah, and it says, for example trauma therapist.
Meenu :Yeah, yeah, yeah, so like for me, I think I realized that I get burnt out emotionally very quickly when I literally told all my friends, like besties, close friends, all inner circle, that I will not be taking any phone calls Like I. They can text me, they can send me a voice note. I may respond right away If I see the phone. I won't if I don't, and it's nothing against you, but don't, please don't call me. Right, right, true, emergency, please don't call me, but no emergency, please don't call me but I think I still have.
Johnna:Like I was talking on previous podcasts, like sometimes, like I'm watching this show called the pit right now and it's like probably the most realistic medical show I've seen. And mean you, I have not told you this story yet and I already know what you're gonna say. But I was like, because I said it on the podcast and I was like I was sitting there eating breakfast watching these people do what they do on the show and all of a sudden, like it's nothing traumatic happening, nothing sad or anything tears streaming down the face for no reason and I was like this has to be PTSD, right, I'm about to start crying now and I don't know why. Like it's just, I guess we don't know how much we go through until you're trying to look at it from a third lens. And so my thought earlier what I was going to say is like, with burnout for me and how I started to finally recognize it, which I was irritable all the time, which is not typical of my personality, people would say if they worked with me oh, that's just her, she's irritable all the time. But that wasn't who I was. That's not my personality. I don't like being irritable, but I was irritable constantly and so I started to lose compassion for my patients because I would be like I was just so overworked. And it was just like during COVID.
Johnna:It came to the point where it was just like I don't and I said this on previous podcasts and I said I know this is bad to say as a nurse but it got to the point where I was like I don't care why you're here, I just want to go home. I just want to go home because I ended up getting sick. I ended up with COVID, and then you can imagine me trying to be sick, to try to take care of someone else and, like you know, you have to leave everything at the door. And maybe I just had a fight with a friend, maybe I'm going through an illness, and then I have to go into work and put on this face, leave everything at the door and still do my best. And that's when I knew, okay, you are burnout, it's time to step away. Because when you start losing compassion for patients, that's you have to recognize that you have to be like okay, I still love my patients, I still love what I do, but I need to take a break.
Meenu :No, that is like very spot on, Like that is. That is a very harsh realization.
Johnna:And it's hard to say that it's hard.
Meenu :It is hard, but thank you for being transparent, because I feel like people need to hear that.
Johnna:And I'm going to. I don't know why I'm feeling like I'm going to cry, but like it's just. It's hard to say that out loud as a nurse because people look at you and they think like you should care and I do care. It's not that I don't care, but it's like you know what they say about anything like an airplane. When you're in an airplane and they give you the safety directions when you're on there, they say put your oxygen mask on first.
Meenu :Exactly, that's so true. And you know, you get that and I get it in a different way, where people are like, oh, you run your business. You know, and you get that and I get it in a different way, where people are like, oh, you run your business. You know, from zoom, like you see clients on zoom. Sometimes you have like in person, like how can you get tired? It's not like you're waking up at 5 am and you're not driving to, to work and you're not packing lunches for five kids, why. You know. A lot of people have made some comments, but what they don't understand is I'm holding space for like very turbulent experience that happens.
Johnna:Right, you don't have a moment to zone out. You can't do that.
Meenu :I don't and I think Jonna knows this Like I have VIP clients in like certain containers who have access to me Monday to Friday and it's unlimited access. So that means when shit hits the fan sorry to use all these words, but when shit really hits the fan I'm there. You know, I'm there, I'm wearing my hat, I'm wearing my shoes, I'm like ready to like coach them, help them come out of it, give them a different perspective. So my brain is 24, seven, working sometimes and it's not just one client.
Meenu :You have multiple, I have multiple. I now I've done a good job and not taking more than five at a time, especially the VIP clients, like I cannot, because I I used to do like 11 and and you know, girl, like oh my god, it was, you know, and I was holding space for everyone, but then I ended up feeling really exhausted, couldn't go meet my friends, couldn't socialize like I couldn't, meal prep like I just didn't do anything, right, right, you start losing the thing like and that's something like, and again like we don't pay attention to it.
Johnna:I and I always like to try to find examples in my life or something that someone can relate to, like, because when it's happening to you, you don't really recognize stuff. For instance, when I started having thyroid problems, looking back, knowing what I know now and looking back, I was experiencing symptoms. For a long time I would post on Facebook. This was way before Instagram. I would post on Facebook a clump of my hair that had fallen out in the shower and be like should I be concerned that I can make a wig with the hair, laughing about it. But in reality it was a symptom of hypothyroidism and I wasn't even paying attention to it. Right, right, right. And so I think that we don't as humans typically pay attention to our own symptoms, sometimes 1000%.
Meenu :And I think it's also because, like like I said again, like I said before, I'm saying it again which is like being in certain cultures and being in certain environments. You know, you, you do work yourself up to a point of burnout, because that is when you get the raise, that is when you get the promotion, that is when you get, oh, attaboy, like you did it, like that is when you get appreciation, so much, so you think that that's normal, and you also think it's normal because somebody else is doing it and so you can do it. You know, so it's just never, ever the case, and I feel like burnout is very subjective to each individual.
Meenu :And I'm like, just because somebody is doing that doesn't mean you should and you can, and this is the thing even if you can doesn't mean you should.
Johnna:So I clearly have not lived in any other country, but you have, you've lived in several. So when you compare the different cause, I know we're talking about like, cultural, like sometimes it is a cultural thing Like and I know America, that's what we, we talk about all the time. We talk about like pushing work, work as long as you can work 12 hours, 13, 14, 16, get the job done, show your boss You're great. And for women, I I feel like we try to prove ourselves more in the business aspect of it. So you living in other cultures, in other countries, would you say it is predominantly an American culture thing, or have you seen it elsewhere?
Meenu :So let me put it this way Asian cultures like, oh my God, it's. I don't think they know when to pause. I don't think they understand the concept of boundaries. Like I work in India, sometimes my boss will just be like, oh, can you get this done? And I'll be like it's the weekend, like it's the weekend, you're giving me something to do in the weekend. You know it's like having zero compassion and you know, in Asian cultures, I know that it's really really, really bad. Asian cultures, I know that it's really really, really bad. However, however, I did live in Mexico City for two and a half years and I really like their culture. Like, for example, they would take two hour lunch breaks, two hours.
Johnna:I was about to say that kind of sounds like and I again I'm just assuming off a TV show like Emily in Paris, love the show and it's about a European culture. And so when she moved from Chicago to Paris and they were taking like four hour lunches, she was like what, and you're drinking and what? And they didn't go to work till like 10 am and she showed up at like seven and she was like what is? And they were like you need to relax.
Meenu :And she'll be like, oh, I've already thought of like all this game plan for this event. Her boss will be like wait, wait, wait, slow down, we have it's 10 am. Calm down, exactly like no, that. I just feel that so much because, like, obviously the hyper independent culture, overachieving culture and going from here to european cultures, it's way different. And I have, like this friend in germany, she only works five hours a day, really five hours, really don't care when you clock in and clock out, they don't care when she clocks in, they're just like you're delivering it, that's enough. I don't care if you come in, I don't care if you clock in and I'm just like, oh, my god, that's amazing. And I, when I'm talking about Mexico, I did notice there that you know they do work a lot, but they take so many breaks. So I'm like if I took that many breaks, it makes me question if I would be actually oh my gosh, so I was.
Johnna:So it is a societal thing, like it's this pressure of performing at a thousand percent all the time. And I've said this so many times and I look again. I know I referenced in the past three podcasts about the pit, but like, talking about medical care, like this doctor like talked to a another doctor. They called her I'm about to do spoiler alert they called her slow-mo because she would only want to see like two patients or three patients every couple hours or whatever in an ER, which is not usually acceptable, right? And he was like well, if you want to go that slow, you need to consider internal medicine where you can have the time and stuff, because that's not what they are. He was like why are you so scared to see more patients because you're a great doctor? And she was like I don't want to mess up.
Johnna:And he was like I hate to tell you this, but you're a human, you're not a robot, even in medicine, and it sometimes is fatal and it's sad and it's atrocious, he said, but that's the reality of it. He was like you're a human being, you're not a robot. And I was just like when he said that, I was just like, ding, ding, ding like, because we're expected to operate as robots, never make a mistake, which again I understand. That it's someone's life that we're messing with and you do not want to make a mistake, and it's not that. It's not that it's an intentional mistake. Sometimes, unfortunately, things fall through the cracks and it's very unfortunate when it's a human life. Yeah, you know.
Johnna:I mean like speaking from mental health professionals. You could, for example, you could miss someone trying to tell you that they want to go home and kill themselves. It could be one little thing that you don't pay attention to, you miss and that is very unfortunate it is. But again, when you're working that like, when you're pushing the limits that much, it's hard to and I and again I'm not saying it's, it should be acceptable, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, like people forget people in healthcare, healthcare professional, mental health professionals as well that we are human at the end of the day and I think people forget that, that like it's, and I understand why there's higher pressure there. So please do not take that. I'm not saying that. I understand that. But I think people forget that we also are humans that have baggage, that have families, that have emotional disturbances ourselves.
Meenu :Yes, that's actually a very fair point. The last one that you said, it's like you know, when we're holding space for like other people, I mean, the truth is like I'm just saying from our perspective, guys, like don't come at us for this.
Johnna:Yeah.
Meenu :Truth is we're dealing with a lot of shit. You know, right Life stuff we're dealing with, you know, relationships. We're dealing with friendships. We're dealing with social stuff. We're dealing with health stuff. Like we are actively, even though we're professionals. We are having a life. We are in our own shadows. We are actually feeling it, dealing with it, moving through it and holding space for everyone else. Not that I'm complaining I absolutely love what you do but I'm just saying please don't put us on a pedestal. Please don't do that. We're not perfect and I tell my clients all the time, like, if I make a mistake, if I say something that is offensive, that doesn't land for you, I want you to tell me that. I want you to speak. We're equals. I'm not better than you Like, yeah, I have more experience doing this. I've done it for 10 years, but you know I'm bound to make mistakes. I'm not AI.
Johnna:You know, right, right, and I agree with that. And like, just like you said, like to just give an example of like a 13 hour shift in the ER, which is why I love the show, because it goes hour by hour for each episode, it doesn't just switch to another day Like so many things happen in that 13 hours. Like I remember, because we were an adult ER and there's a pediatric ER in our town. Well, we got a pediatric trauma that ended up passing away. Which pediatric traumas are harder to like, accept and move on. So, like, think about that. If that's the first thing you see in the first hour of your shift, but yet you still have to put on a brave face and move on and emotionally detach from it to take care of someone else, that is hard, that is hard.
Johnna:And so when you go home and you yell at your husband or you kick the trash, can, or you, whatever, it's not you, it's not yeah, and that's what it's, I think it's really hard and, like I've heard therapists tell me before, like it's really hard for ER nurses or trauma nurses in relationships or marriage because people just can't understand like turning it off and turning it on. And, for example, one of my very best friends, she had a hard time because my personalities I know we've talked about this on a previous podcast my personalities ended up merging at some point because it was hard to turn it off and turn it on.
Johnna:And then my friend's father-in-law came into the er and he was very, very sick and I came in very like abrupt and very you're gonna do this, go, do that, go do this, like this. And then she pulled me aside and was just like I've never understood your personality until this moment and she was like I'm just very thankful for it. Wow, but it took her seeing like what I do and like that really. And I'm getting emotional because that really meant a lot to me, because we used to fight a lot about how she didn't feel like I was showing emotion or I wasn't as emotional as I should be or maybe as compassionate as I should be in my personal life. She was like leave that at work. And I was like I don't think you understand that, I can't Like so. But yeah, so like ended up burned out. So for me, like ended up burned out. So for me, she ended up burned out.
Johnna:It took me 11 years to reach that point of like okay, I need to try something different. And then I went into another role where, um, I was just seeing like office patients and then I finally like landed in a role where it's like it's very rewarding. Now I just see six patients max a day, um, and I work with veterans, so it's just very rewarding to like be able to six patients max a day, and I work with veterans, so it's just very rewarding to like be able to relate to them in some type of way. Because I tell them I was an ER nurse, they're like, oh, you get it, that's what they tell me. They literally go, oh, you get it.
Johnna:And I'm like, yeah, like I can relate to them in a way of like this fast paced society, of get over it, move on, and so it's a very rewarding job. Now it's slower, I have more chart reviews than I do like patients, and I needed that break. But don't get me wrong, I miss the ER a lot. But yeah, that's how I ended up having to realize and recognize it was the compassion. And then I was like, okay, let's take a break from it. Who knows, maybe one day I'll go back, because I do miss it a lot. But when you made your post the other day, what were you thinking like when you realize, like, holy shit, I'm burnout?
Meenu :I just started. First of all, I didn't feel like getting up, so I was like, wait, this isn't happening, like you know, and you know I open about it, like I have like hypothyroid stuff. But I knew that it was not that, though, I knew that I was like something is really off, like I don't feel like getting out of bed, like, and I'm not depressed, I don't have anxiety. So why do I feel like getting out of bed? Yeah, and brushing your hair is a chore. Why do I feel like getting out of bed? Yeah, you know, and Like brushing your hair is a chore.
Meenu :Everything was a chore and I'll tell you. For me, what happened is I took two weeks off to go to Dubai and I was very conscious of wanting to be present in my vacation. So I was like I'm not going to do social media stuff, so I've already arranged and scheduled the podcast social media when I was away, so I didn't do anything. I was away, so I didn't do anything. I was fully present. So I thought, oh, Dubai is going to recharge me.
Johnna:Which, by the way, gorgeous trip pictures you posted gorgeous trip.
Meenu :You know, I thought I was going to feel very recharged when I come back to United States, but what actually happened was it did recharge me, but then the journey of flight, which was like 29 hours, it ended up draining me a lot. And then I came back and I thought I would be recharged and I started seeing more clients and then I realized I couldn't. I just physically, emotionally couldn't. And I had some clients that were very emotional about the fact that I went for two weeks and I came back and they didn't have support, which is totally understandable, right. So imagine, like, logging in on Zoom and that person is, you know, crying for 45 minutes, right, about something. And then you know, like you say you have like a poker face at work or you're like you have a straight face because you have to.
Meenu :I'm like that too. Like when a client is crying, I'm not hugging them, I'm not comforting them, I'm not doing. I'm holding space for them to cry, and sometimes it comes across as cold, you know, because I'm not being there in a way that a friend is there but you're not a friend. I'm not a friend in a way that a friend is there but that's not a friend. I'm not a friend, and that is also for a very good reason.
Johnna:You have to have those boundaries.
Meenu :I have to have those boundaries. If I don't have the boundaries and I'm saying, oh my God, you're crying, like what can I do? Like how can I make it better? If I do that, I'm going to be taking on those problems. 90%.
Johnna:But then isn't that crossing like a patient coaching barrier, because then you become too emotionally involved and then you can't give a third party opinion.
Meenu :Oh, 1000%, but you will actually be surprised. I've seen people do that Really. I've seen live coaches. Oh my God, this is very disturbing. Me and my friend were talking about it one day. I went to this event and this, this coach started crying when the speaker started crying, like they're conveying their problem to the coach and this coach is crying with them. Interesting, I was like what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? Right your sense of boundaries, like you know, you're supposed to be that strong space for them, not cry with them, like you know right now you're making it even worse for them.
Meenu :Now you're validating their pain 10 times more.
Johnna:Like you gotta, you gotta detach like I know you say you're not a therapist but like I equate y'all in my mind the same because I feel like what you do if anyone's never I mean I'm not saying all life coaches are the same, because they're not, but I can talk about you because I've experienced your coaching and to me it is very therapy-like.
Johnna:I feel like you hold yourself to that high standard of boundaries and keeping it professional, not like a friendship, and I feel like when it is that mental health space, that's what you need, because even as friends, like close friends, sometimes we can't give that objective advice because we're so close to it. Like we can't. Like we're like I'm on your side, yes, divorce him, you know, whatever. But like from a friend that you know is not like a really really close friend we can be like actually I think you're being a little emotional here because it's that third party perspective, if you will like you're not emotionally attached to it. So like even every anytime I've ever went to a therapist, the first thing they tell me is that they say, hey, I'm not your friend. If you see me out in public I won't wave, so don't be offended. They say all that and I feel like you kind of held yourself in that same regard, and that's why I equate y'all two to the same thing in my mind, because you always held yourself that way.
Meenu :No, no, no, absolutely I do. But you know, sometimes it's like I do end up having client friends like you, like you, you know we weren't friends before we started working together, but you know, after we started working together we did become friends. But you know, like when we were working together, there were, you know, boundaries that you acknowledge, like we both acknowledge, that Right, that's just like really important, and not boundaries with other people and I think this is where I'm coming to it which is boundaries with yourself in order to prevent the burnout.
Meenu :Because you know, if you're overextending yourself all the time and maybe that's like giving you the validation that you're a good person, like putting yourself there. You're always doing things for other people because you're kind and you're good, you know it's not really, you're not really doing a service to the collective, you're not really helping them.
Johnna:Right, no, I agree, and I was. I was getting there like I have a part time job and I was giving out my phone number to like patients, families and stuff, so like I'm getting texts at like nine, 10 o'clock at night and my friend who works with me she was like why are you doing that? She was like there is a boundary. Like she was like does your doctor give you his phone number?
Meenu :And I was like no, I fully agree with that and I generally like, even with my clients, like I know they know this and I love them dearly I'll always tell them like please, never, ever, call me Like there is an emergency. You want to book a session, talk about something text, send me a text or send me an email, and then you know we can appropriately discuss what it is. But you know, calling it's like I just I just want to understand like how how this works, right, because for me it's like when somebody calls me, they're demanding for my time, isn't that? Doesn't that?
Johnna:feel like that. No, no, no. I think that we're very, we're very similar personalities. So, like I, I think from my PTSD moments, I think they like when people call me now, like the last guy that I had dated, like he wanted to talk on the phone and like I was like that, like I remember vividly the first time he called me I was like why are you calling me? And he was like okay, and I was just like what? Like what, what, what do we need to talk about? Is it not something you can just text me?
Meenu :No, it's. I mean you know that real estate. You know, me and my best friend have these like nick, nick, nick, nick words, nicknames, whatever we call it real estate, that real estate for people to call me it's, it's very very like three or four people.
Johnna:Yeah, my aunt, like I talked to my aunt probably three times a week on the phone. We'll have an hour to two hour conversations.
Meenu :but she also lives far away from me and like sometimes like she has to give me like like life, life advice and so like that's not a quick text messaging conversation, Right right, right, right, and it's and I think for me to answer your question, it because I was like oh, I went and I recharged, so I have all this like energy, so let me overdo it and let me try to compensate. And then that, like really that slapped me in my face Because my body was like this is not how we roll, you're not used to this. What are you doing? Like we don't, we don't see four or five people a day. What are you doing?
Johnna:So and so that's so true, like there's also this saying in America you probably heard. This is you need a vacation from your vacation. And that's probably where you were at, because because what we do is we work up until our vacation and we actually a lot of times overwork before the vacation to catch up.
Meenu :I was literally up till 12am every single day so that I don't miss a week of podcast. I don't miss social media and you know what happened. You know what happened. Guess what happened. I missed two weeks after coming back, even though I never wanted to miss a day. I never wanted to miss a week.
Johnna:I do two episodes a week and I missed two whole weeks because you know what I physically could not, and I used to do that, like when in the ER, so like I didn't have a lot of time off because I did like this MP plus program, so I would work, I would stack my days, I would work six in a row so that I could have seven off, and then I would have to then work three in a row, one off, three in a row again, which would kill me, and I was like, why do we do this? We do it to ourselves. No one else is doing it. We are because there is no one else.
Johnna:If you take a time to yourself, like I finally started realizing that, like I was like, you know, what Do they think about me? When I'm at home, if I call out and I'm sick, does the world keep moving? Does the world keep going? Do people stop, stop and think, oh my gosh, jana's not here, she's not running around, she's not doing all the things that I want her to do? No, no one's thinking that.
Meenu :We think that no one was thinking that and you know, I was actually talking to one of my friends and I almost had this guilt, like I was like, oh my god, I'm going for two weeks, like what about my clients? And then friend was like you're allowed to have a vacation, right? I mean, it's like it really like for mental health professionals. It's. It's just, you know the people that you work with especially closely. It's like they're always, always orbiting in your mind. You like it or not, it's orbiting. It's like these five people. They're always here, so, and you know, I love it. But at the same time, I also need to have boundaries so that I can be a better coach, so that I can show up better for those five VIP clients and the others Right. So like for me, I feel like people need to take into account that emotional labor can be draining.
Johnna:I think it's more draining than physical. Well, not more. It's different, it's just different. It's just very different. And I can relate to that because when I was a nurse in the ER I'm not saying it wasn't a mental exhaustion because it was, but it was more laborious because you were doing more of the running back and forth, taking patients upstairs, doing all the tasks right. And when I switched to being a nurse practitioner in the ER, it was really hard for me to accept that I wasn't doing the labor. Very hard to accept, yeah, but I was taking on more mental exhaustion, oh, yeah. But I was always like the first, probably six months of the transition, I was like I'm not doing anything for the patient because I wasn't starting their IV, I wasn't taking them upstairs, I wasn't going and getting the supplies, I wasn't going and grabbing their meds, I wasn't performing the CPR. I was like I'm not doing anything for this patient, Even though I was listening to them, them, I was writing orders for them, I was getting everything initiated right, right.
Meenu :No, I like completely, completely understand, and sometimes I see people with my clients as an example. I see people that are like high working individuals, like high performing individuals, and then they go to motherhood and they feel like they aren't doing anything. Right, right, you're a mother, you, you're doing more oh my God, like you're probably overworked right now than what you did in your job.
Johnna:Do you know? Something I actually heard today. It was on a podcast that the eight hour workday was created for when we had someone at home prepping meals for us. Oh my God that makes sense yeah.
Johnna:Yeah, I mean it does, because when you think about it like that was created way back when women stayed home, they did, they were mothers, they did cook, they did the laundry. That is a full-time job and I think people forget that. Like we're not mothers. I have no desire to be a mother because of that, because my career is my child, exactly. That's so true.
Meenu :I feel like we're so similar. Oh yeah, I was literally telling my friend that my business is my baby.
Johnna:So I do have some tips that I looked up for like to try to prevent burnout. So it's like you're experiencing these, or maybe you are going into the professions that we're in, or maybe just like you said, a high working job that could potentially lead to burnout. Then here's some suggestions or tips to try to maybe prevent it. Number one control your workload. So, if you can set limits on hours and patient loads when possible. So that's what you're doing now, you're setting that boundary.
Meenu :I'm definitely doing that and I've started. What I've also started doing is like spacing out my sessions like one to 2pm. I have a session. I don't see anybody till three.
Johnna:Yeah, yeah, giving yourself some time.
Meenu :Oh yeah, that's been nice. It's not enough, but it's still better.
Johnna:Yeah, then, diversifying your work, if you can, so like for a nurse that they gave examples of, like mixing clinical work with either consulting, reviewing charts or teaching, and that's kind of what I did. Like I transitioned from patient patient, patient patient to now I see patients, but I'm also doing clinical review or chart reviews, clinical reviews, so it was like a mix of things. So I'm still working eight hours a day, but it's not the same thing all day long. So, like usually about the time I'm getting tired of reading a chart, I have a patient, and then usually you know, and then it's vice versa Right, right, know, and then it's vice versa, right, right, so, um, and then it says to delegate work when possible, if you can. So, like I know you work for yourself, so you delegate to yourself to myself.
Meenu :I'll just be like I'll do it saturday um.
Johnna:The second tip would be to prioritize recovery and self-care. So taking breaks, schedule your vacations, even short ones. Do not work before after during maintaining a healthy routine. So try to get consistent sleep, exercise and nutrition if that's what you're into, and then practice self um stress relief like meditation, journaling, hobbies or time outdoors. So basically, don't give up the things you love to be this work all the time person.
Meenu :No, absolutely. And I like preach meditation so much to my clients, not because, oh, I'm Zen and you know like I like to do it every day. Sometimes I just don't feel like doing it, but I do it because that is the way I pour into my cup. If my cup isn't full, how am I supposed to show up for my clients, right?
Johnna:I agree. I mean because we work, I mean we work in a medical professional, we're medical professionals, I guess is what I'm trying to say. So like we kind of have similar reasonings to do what we do. The third tip is to establish boundaries, which is what I never was good at but I'm trying to work on in this new job. So it says leave work at work If you can, like some people are on call, but like, if you can leave work at work If you can, like some people are on call, but like if you can leave work at work, like you were saying, like there's, there should be a timeframe with your clients so that you can leave that work at work. Try to mentally and emotionally detach after your shift. So I know for you you meditate in between to kind of get rid of that energy.
Meenu :Yes, and also another very quick thing that I like to say. I've said this to a lot of people and it's been very helpful Like, if you're like listening to this and you have a desk job or you're working in an environment which is like confined or whatever, a good break for you Meditation is one, but another really good break for you is to like step outside and go for a quick walk, even if it's just for 10 minutes, because getting fresh air and changing the environment is so helpful.
Meenu :I've started doing that at this new job. That's amazing. It's so helpful to like completely tune up your energy and then come back.
Johnna:Yeah, Like when I can tell that I'm getting like tired of like reading a chart or something, if it's very long, I'll get up and go take a couple laps outside. I'll grab my book, read a chapter, just do something that I'm not overstressing myself about finish this, finish that you know.
Meenu :Yes, absolutely.
Johnna:Um, it says, limit emotional overload.
Meenu :Um, especially if you're dealing with trauma sometimes I don't know how you can limit that, but I guess try to find ways, like you were saying, like take a walk um walk and you know, the way I limit it for me is I'll, I'll be like if I don't limit, then I can't show up for them in a way that they actually deserve.
Meenu :So, that's a very good reason for me to, like you know, have boundaries, take care of myself, show up in an authentic way, because this is the thing, like, believe it or not, like people like you, people like me, we're under the radar, right, it's like people. Even though we don't want to be put on a pedestal, people do look up to us in like certain ways. Yeah, if I'm not, I don't have boundaries. What am I teaching my clients? I'm teaching my clients that they don't need to have boundaries.
Johnna:No, I agree, I agree, and it's hard when people are like. I remember, like when I was doing nutrition coaching, like it was very hard if I wanted to go out and just be like you know what? I'm not going to eat healthy today. It was hard to do that sometimes because it's like people are watching, like I'm supposed to be the example.
Meenu :Right, right, right, 1000%. And so like we are I mean, believe it or not like there's a lot of pressure for us guys, like you know, it's like you got to really walk the walk because, and you know, it's clearly taught us a lot of things and we're very grateful for the whole experience. But sometimes walking the walk is hard.
Johnna:It is. It is Um, it says to just say no. Learn to say no. Don't take on extra work out of guilt, which I was very guilty of. Like I know, when my boss would come to me when I worked in the ER and they were like, hey, we're super short staff tomorrow, can you please pick up extra days?
Johnna:I would always say yes, even though I knew I was so tired and exhausted and I didn't have anything left to give. I would be like yes, because I was trying not to be selfish. I think it comes down like I was trying not to be selfish, going back. I think it comes down like I was trying not to be selfish, like going back. I know this is way, way past, but like something I should have recognized for me being burnout was I couldn't even rest without feeling guilty. I couldn't lay on the couch without feeling this overwhelm of I'm being lazy. I should be up, working, people need me, and so that's that's a sign to like if're. If you can't sit down and rest and you have to constantly be doing something cleaning, working, cooking, talking that is a sign of burnout.
Meenu :Oh my God, I do that a lot. I do that, Like you know, my friends tease me like they'll come over for like dinner and I'll just be doing the dishes. I'll clean the counter.
Johnna:I'll just they'll be like can you please sit down? Like I just want you to like sit down, yeah.
Meenu :And they say that's like a stress response, like like, if you can't just sit and be which I mean it is, it is, and you know, that's why I meditate, because I force myself to sit and be um, and that helps me recharge. And I'm actually I don't know if I told you this, but I'm actually going on a silent retreat oh fun, four days the end of this month to recharge myself, because all we're going to be doing is eating amazing food, doing yoga, meditating for three, four hours a day, talking to teachers that we can't talk to each other because it's silent retreat. You can use your phones.
Johnna:Oh my gosh, I cannot wait for you to do that and come back and tell us all about it Out as a clean slate.
Meenu :Yeah, I'm actually going to record a whole podcast about this. Yes, my fourth time in the silent retreat.
Johnna:I think I would probably go nuts, but I would love to try it. It would be a challenge.
Meenu :Actually, I you know what I think will happen. I think day one is will be like so challenging. And then day two, I think you'll secretly start liking it. And day three, you're going to get hooked, and that's what happened to me. Day four I don't want to come back.
Johnna:The fourth tip is to consider career adjustments. So shift to lower intensity roles, like changing what you do, and that's what I did. Try to increase your autonomy, like maybe like this is talking about medical, it's just giving me me examples so, like, if you're working for someone else, try to go into private practice, kind of like if you were working for a company, you went into private practice, um, and then pursue passion product projects, so something that you're passionate about that you can actually take control over. That's going to take your mind off of the trauma.
Meenu :Yes, and then I'm sorry to interrupt, but one thing I will say real quickly is when you go into passion projects and when you open those creative juices, it is a form of stress release.
Johnna:Yes, yes, I agree, Because it enhances your dopamine and then you're actually focusing on something outside of work and sometimes it will take you from work, because you need that attention there.
Meenu :Exactly, exactly.
Johnna:And then the last one. It says obviously seek support. So connect with your peers who understand your stress. Go to therapy or coaching for personal resilience, and then mentorship Mentoring others can reduce burnout by shifting your focus from stress to growth.
Meenu :Right, no, absolutely Like. I've had some regular clients for like three years now. They don't have anything to work on, but they just need like a reset every week. So they'll come and they'll talk about you know, their accomplishments and some mindset shifts and we'll talk about it and they'll be like oh spots and tell you where you can like improve your life and that's something that you really need. So I love what you just summarized. I think it's like all of that hit the nail on the wall.
Johnna:When I'm trying to be better with my friends. I'm not quite there yet but, like I know, I'm quick to like if a friend comes to me to and I can tell they're venting. But they're also asking rhetorical question, not, is it rhetorical questions where you don't answer back. Is that? Uh, what's the question?
Johnna:I was like there's a question that you don't answer back, um, when they're asking me questions that I know I'm not supposed to answer. But then I start giving advice and then I have to catch myself, because sometimes I'm like I'm giving advice and I don't think that's what they want. I think they want to vent, and then I'm sitting here trying to fix it or change their mind and they're like no, it's making them more agitated.
Meenu :It is, and I used to do that, oh my God. I used to give free advice and then I realized I was burning out and not even serving them. So at this point I've learned to develop this habit of asking is there anything I can do? And if there is nothing, then there's nothing. Then I'm just holding space for you to vent or you to say whatever you want, because there's nothing I can do and you don't want me to do anything.
Johnna:My aunt's really good because we've gotten in some tiffs or whatever, because I'm just venting. And she'll be like like trying to give me advice. I'm like I don't want your advice right now, like can you just listen to me? And she'll be like so she's gotten really good at being like when I start on a tangent, she'll be like, okay, I just need to know Are you venting or do you need my advice right now? Like I need to know which way this conversation because she said I can listen, but she says, john, I'm a lot like you, like I like to fix problems. She was like so if you don't want me telling you that you're wrong in this moment, let me know first, before you get mad, that I tell you that you're wrong right, and you know, guys, I I just want to like emphasize this, because burnouts can happen in friendships too, and it's yeah, just to conclude this episode.
Meenu :I want to really talk about this. It's happened to me a few times where I had I used to have you know these friends that would just call and talk about this. It's happened to me a few times where I had I used to have you know these friends that would just call and talk about the same shit, like the same thing, the same problem, the same, the same thing, and I would have given them so much advice which would have totally changed the trajectory of their mindset and their lives, and they didn't take it because they just want to keep talking about it, they just want to vent. They just want to vent right. Because they just want to keep talking about it. They just want to vent, they just want to vent right. So have discernment.
Meenu :I'm not saying you know, you don't even have to hold space for venting. If you cannot do that, you don't have to do that, you don't have to listen. You can be honest and you can say you know what, I'm going through some stuff. How about we reconnect next week and I will have some bandwidth for you. You're also allowed to do that. You don't have that whole space. You don't have to always be there. Whether you give advice or not, you don't have to.
Johnna:And I can say this because I used to be one of those friends that would vent about the same thing over and over and like I couldn't understand why my friends would be like, oh my gosh, this is like year 10. Why are you still talking about this thing? But now, like I have a friend that's kind of going through the same thing and now I get it because you know how you. They say that you don't really know something until you experience it yourself. So like now I'm kind of going through that with a friend and I'm like okay, but like now I'm calling my friends and apologizing because the saying of what you're not changing, you're choosing, is so true.
Meenu :And 1000%. That was like two months ago. This friend was like continuing to like talk about the same thing and I just told her, I just asked her a question. I said, do you want to be happy? And then there was like this huge silence and then she was like I think. So I said I don't think you do. You know I need to sit with that. Yeah, you don't have to answer me right away, like sit with that and ask do you?
Johnna:actually want. So funny that you said that, because my aunt will do the same thing She'll go. I don't want you to answer this right now, but I want you to think about this question and I'm like, and then I know she's getting real serious and I'm like oh, yeah, and it's just.
Meenu :You know, it is just what it is. So, like I said, you're not obligated to answer phones, you're not obligated to show up when you don't have anything to give, you don't have anything to pour. And you know, like I've started doing this with certain people, I'll even like tell them, if I cannot respond, I'll just tell them, I will respond to you shortly. I can't respond now, right, and because it's when you text someone.
Johnna:when you call someone, you are asking for their time. Yeah, and then the last thing I'll say is, like, just try to recognize the signs of burnout before you get fully burnt out, so that you can maybe correct, take corrective action. And just remember the example I gave you have to put your oxygen mask on first before you can take care of anyone else. You have to feed yourself first before you can feed anyone else, because if you're not at your best, there is no way you're giving your best to someone else.
Meenu :Exactly and also remember that, no matter how you are, whether you decide to show up in your fullest or not, people are moving on. The world is moving on. They can exist without you. As brutal and harsh as it sounds, it's very true.
Johnna:Agreed Well. Thank you so much, minyu, for doing this podcast with me. It's always a pleasure, it's always fun. Thank you so much, minou, for doing this podcast with me. It's always a pleasure, it's always fun. Thank you so much. And guys, don't add us, we're not trying to offend anybody. We're just speaking from personal experience. Maybe you're in the nursing or mental health professional field and you're not experiencing this, and that is 1000% wonderful and I'm happy for you. This is just from our own personal experience, as always.
Meenu :Yes, until next time. Yes, until next time.
Johnna:Bye guys, you.
