Babbles Nonsense
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Babbles Nonsense
The Boomerang Effect: Why Exes Come Back w/ Meenu
#177: That ex who keeps circling back into your life? There's a fascinating psychology behind it that rarely has anything to do with genuine love or reconciliation. In this raw and revealing conversation, we unpack the real reasons behind those surprise texts and "how have you been?" messages that seem to arrive just when you've started to heal.
The statistics might surprise you—only 10% of exes reach out with genuine intentions to reconcile, while the vast majority are driven by boredom, ego, or a desire for control. Meenu explains the science of mirror neurons, which create psychic-like connections between people who were once close, and breaks down how our brains develop addictive cycles in on-again, off-again relationships.
Most importantly, this episode offers a roadmap for breaking free from these toxic patterns. Through personal stories and professional insights, we explore why we often confuse intense emotional highs and lows (what psychology calls "limerence") with genuine love. You'll learn why waiting to feel confident before cutting contact never works, and how self-respect is developed through actions, not feelings.
Whether you're the one tempted to reach out to an ex or dealing with someone who keeps reappearing in your life, this conversation provides both clarity and practical strategies. Discover how to distinguish between genuine opportunities for reconciliation and situations that will only lead to repeated heartbreak. Ready to break the cycle once and for all? This episode is your first step toward reclaiming your power and peace.
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What is up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Babbles Nonsense Podcast. Today, Mingyu is back and we are talking about a topic that hits all the way home that ex who keeps popping back up you know the one Just when you've moved on, healed, maybe even forgotten their birthday, and then boom, A random text message, a call, a like on your story. Or a casual hey, how you been Like they didn't just ghost you months ago. Or a casual hey, how you been Like they didn't just ghost you months ago. So today we are talking about why they come back. Is it love, Is it ego, or is it just plain old power dynamics? In this episode I'm sharing some of my own stories, a little unfiltered, and we're unpacking the psychology, the patterns and how to break the cycle for good. Let's talk about it.
Meenu:Let's get raw, real and maybe a little messy welcome back beautiful people into a brand new episode and transcend into wellness and babbles nonsense. As usual, jonna had something extremely interesting for me to talk about which I just could not say no to.
Johnna:I don't know how she every time well, you know it's for selfish reasons only, but yeah, um wanted to talk about or I asked me, and you, because you know she's so great at giving me advice, because that's her whole job um, I wanted to know, like why exes kind of like circle back because that seems to be a pattern in my life not necessarily exes or maybe someone I used to date or something like that and I was like, can you talk about this? Because I know I have a lot of friends, you know girlfriends that we sit around and talk about it and it seems to be a pattern in their lives as well. So I was just found it an interesting topic.
Meenu:Oh, it is very interesting. It's happened, I would say, a few times in my life. It's happened for my clients, it's happened for my friends and usually whenever that happens, it's you know. I see a similar theme. It's like you know, we feel like we've lost our power, we feel like we've lost all the work that we've done.
Johnna:we feel that emotional tug of war and then, because of that emotion, we think it means something when it doesn't mean that yeah, no, yeah, 100% Agreed.
Meenu:Yeah. So one of the main I'm not even going to say one. There's like several reasons why they reach out, but like some of the main reasons which I wanted to like point out is, like, have you heard about this concept called mirror neurons? So mirror neurons are something which you know if you're close to somebody. Our brains are like wired with mirror neurons which actually pick up on the emotional states of the people that we were once close to. Oh, really, yes. So, for example, my mom I don't know how I was like are you psychic? And she was like I swear I'm not Every time. I'm like feeling down. I was like are you psychic? And she was like I swear I'm not Every time I'm like feeling down every time I'm sick.
Johnna:she knows, okay.
Meenu:So kind of like a twin thing, like when twins know, yeah, similar. So those are all like mirror neurons. It happens with parents and their children. It sometimes even happens with best friends, which have like a very soulmatey kind of a friendship, and definitely happens with husband and wife. It happens with, you know, ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends, sometimes because of the level of connection they had.
Johnna:That's interesting, because I have that. You say that, like, like when someone has reached out, I had been thinking about them and thinking about reaching out myself, yes, and then, like they were, and I'm like that's odd, or you, you know, or they show up in a dream, or something like that yes, yes, so this that's subconscious.
Meenu:Sure, the subconscious mind is also like playing an active role in like bringing up things from the past. But I found this like thing with mirror neurons like happened so much, and it happened so much with my mom, that I was like what is this thing? And then I was like, oh, this is mirror neurons. Okay, this makes more sense, right? Yeah, and then other some of the other reasons that I want to talk about is there is sometimes this like unfinished emotional ties. So whenever there is like unfinished business, like if emotional closure was never achieved, you know, exes can remain untangled in what is called like an energetic card.
Meenu:So I've done this with a few of my clients, especially when they really request, saying I really want to get over this person and I don't like how I'm feeling, I don't like what this is doing to me, like I feel like I'm doing great and then it comes back and then I'm back in that cycle again. I just need to. So we do like card cutting rituals, we do like energetic divorce rituals, which is like I know it sounds crazy, but it's, you know, it's actually like a 15, 20 minute meditative process and there's some energy releasing process that I do with them and usually after that process there's a huge release that they feel. So sometimes it can be because of psychic hooks. It's almost spiritual. It's hard to explain, or even like emotional ties. It's like maybe everything that needs to be said hasn't been said, maybe that closure that you know both of us are, both of you're wanting to achieve, hasn't been achieved, and then because of that, there is like emotional ties.
Johnna:That makes a lot of sense, and you know a lot of like online therapists or just therapists in general, will tell you like you have to give yourself closure, like that other person's not always going to give you the closure that you need. So would you say, like this meditative practice that you do is the way to energetically give yourself that closure, versus going to that person and talking to them 1000%, because when you're going to that person and talking to them, you are this is the thing.
Meenu:you're still putting weight on the other person to make your life better. So, which means you're still saying I can't make it better, I need you to make it better. And that's okay if that other person is logical and practical and can offer that kind of support, but usually it's not.
Johnna:I was about to ask you because, like, I'm a very much a like and I get that not everybody's like me and I get that I have a very intense personality. Sometimes me and you are very similar. I'm a very inquisitive, I'm a why person, like, why like, why this, why that? And when someone doesn't give me that blunt, direct answer, it makes my mind go in circles and then I have like 25 more questions versus just the closure that I need, because they're just going around it, right, they're not saying what I need them to say or answering the question. For example, if I'm saying, hey, menu, you want to go out Friday, and you're like, well, if this client doesn't show up at this time, then we can go out, and you're like, but you, you know, if this client doesn't show up at this time, then we can go out, and you're like, but you're not answering me, like I'm still stuck in limbo and I don't know the answer, because, yes, you gave me an answer, but it wasn't even an answer to the question that I asked.
Meenu:Right, and I think this is where you know it's. This is like really crazy that I'm saying this, but it's like I think if they don't want to give you the answer, I think it's also safe to assume and understand that they don't want to. You know, they want to have that kind of control. They want to have that, they want to have that power over you.
Johnna:Remember anytime.
Meenu:When somebody doesn't give you the answer, the process that happens for the other person is they start wondering. It's almost a method to have control. They actually say be weak. It's like really, it's really insane like these, like manipulation tactics and things.
Johnna:But do you think that someone who's doing that knows they're being manipulative and like they're using it as a strategy, or is it something that they don't even realize they're doing?
Meenu:both okay it can be either or. And you know, and and I hate to say this like this is coming up recently a lot now and uh, more common with men. And again, I have nothing against men, love women and men the same way but um, they're, they're coming across like spiritual predators. Okay, I mean, they're behaving in a way that you like, so they're not actually being authentic to who they are. They're talking in a way that you like, they're mirroring your behavior, they're showing up in a way that you like, but they're not actually being authentic. So manipulation very much exists If they want to have you in their hook and they want to have that control over you.
Johnna:Sometimes it can be very conscious and remember they're not going to come and tell you that they're not going to reveal that. I know my friends are like because I'll be like. I'll ask someone straight out like why are you doing this? Or like what? And my friends are like, why? Like, do you really think they're going to tell you their playbook? And I'm like exactly, but like, but like, but like I would. I would be like yeah, I don't like you, I'm just, I like. I like the attention you give me, I would. But I, you know, and again, I know a lot of people are not like me and I guess I just expect the same in return for someone to be just direct and honest. But we all know that's. That's. That's why I don't like to date, because I almost don't believe anyone now. Like, I'm so traumatized that I'm like just don't believe anyone.
Meenu:Yeah, but that's also not. You know, that's also like an illusion of safeguarding yourself. But it's really safe.
Johnna:It's like robbing you off of having certain experiences that you probably need to have or would like to have something Well you'll be proud, because I did get back on the dating apps and I'm trying to force myself to do it sometimes, I just can't. And I will say there was this one guy on there that like we, we matched, or whatever, and he was like um, I just want to go ahead and say up front that I'm not looking for anything serious. I just got out of a long-term relationship. But I am looking to talk to someone, like to talk to people or whatever and I, and and he was like so if you're in, if you're interested, then that's cool, but if not, I totally understand. And I was like you know what? Thanks for being completely honest, because that's not what I'm looking for. So, thank you, yeah, no problem.
Meenu:Nice to meet you. I mean it's it's nice to have that, because it's that level of honesty. Like I said, it's pretty refreshing.
Johnna:Yeah, I was just like like you, straight up, were like hey, I'm not trying to waste your time, I'm not trying to play games, I'm not trying to like you know. And he was like well, if you still want to hang out and you're, you know, you want to be friends. I was like no, I'm good, because I tend to get attached to people. It can't be me, can't be me right, right, no, I think that's.
Meenu:And, honestly, kudos to you too, because I think you've done some work on yourself, which is you have this self-awareness that you know. This is just not my cup of tea, because I feel like if I had met you, if you had done this like a year or two years ago, your people pleasing would have kicked in, and you know I'm going to give it a shot, like you know I'm going to, I'm going to see what happens, but I think you really implemented some lessons here, so I am proud of you. So, yeah, yeah, cause part of me probably would have been like you know what, what's the harm in meeting a new friend and hanging out? And then I end up really liking this person and they're like I told you from the get-go I didn't want a relationship. Yeah, no, absolutely.
Meenu:And then I've also like noticed this, which is excess, reaching out, like coming back to that. It's like when and this is something I've seen for myself like when I actually fully move on, they are like they're feeling something energetic. There's a radar they have, there is a radar, something energetic happens and they're like oh, I just wanted to like see how you were doing. I'm like Come on now you, you can feel that I really, really don't care about you anymore and and I've like, fully moved on, and you know, so they can again.
Meenu:It's coming back to that energetic pull, which is hard to explain with science, but you know it happens when, when you know somebody is like fully closed the door and they're gone, and you sense that emotional unavailability, but energetically. So now you want to reach out because now, guess what, you don't have any control and you just want a taste of that control. Sometimes it can also be for ego reasons, like some exes, like I've had some clients tell me crazy stories, like they reach out just to know if they have moved on, or they reach out to know they're still thinking about them. I'm like what?
Johnna:that's the part I guess I don't understand, like the ego check and like and you know I've tried to do like a deep dive and like research this for this topic, but it's like maybe they once like the attention that we gave them, so then they missed that attention because maybe they're not currently getting that attention from anyone else and so it's more just the attention, and that's sad to me that you would disrupt someone's peace for attention.
Meenu:Oh, 1000%. But you got to think about it this way, like when they want something they're not thinking. Is that okay? Is that selfish? Is that selfless? Something they're not thinking, is that okay? Is that selfish? Is that selfless?
Johnna:Like most of them and I hate to say this most of them are not thinking how this is going to affect the other person. And I mean, I guess that's true because, I'll be honest, I've reached out to exes too, like when I've been bored or wanting to talk or whatever. I've reached out, but I guess in my mind I was thinking they're a guy, they're not going to be emotionally upset about this, so maybe that's wrong of me for even doing that too, because it's the same thing. And then I'm sitting here judging the other part.
Meenu:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm like a lot of men. You know they're very emotionally in tune. You know I have male and female clients and I hear this from different people. So the ego part is usually like think about it this way, jonna. It's like, yeah, even if your exes or our exes are with somebody else, we still had a certain energy, we still had a certain way of fulfilling their needs, and even if the other person is fulfilling other needs, they're not fulfilling it in a way that we are. So there is still that void which is there.
Johnna:Yeah, so I retract my statement then, because I I have, I guess, reached out for attention from exes, but usually they're single. I don't reach out to exes if they're with somebody, um. But at the end of the day, I guess where it comes like from my perspective, and it becomes hurtful, is if that person knows that you really wanted something with them or you really were in love with them or you really cared about them, and then they keep reaching out. And that's the part that I just, I guess my brain can't understand well, there is nothing to understand.
Meenu:I'm gonna, I'm gonna paint it really clearly to you. That person does not care okay that person does not care. If you verbally like anybody listening to this, if you verbally told them not to reach out, if you verbalized it and said this doesn't have a positive impact. This is not constructive, especially if we're not going to get together like it's not helping or serving in any way and they continue to reach out. They're doing it for selfish reasons.
Johnna:Like you know, like I said, go check. Oh, I just want to know if she's still thinking about me because what you're saying is that if they were reaching out because they genuinely needed you or genuinely cared about you, it would be like, hey, we need to sit down, we need to talk, I miss you. Let's reconcile that would be the reason for the reach out versus reaching out and just being like, oh my bad, I didn't know, you still felt that way.
Meenu:Yeah, and this is really like one of like pull up statistics, guys, because obviously we we're talking about our experiences, but we also want to talk about facts. Okay, so the reasons why exes reach out, so the cause of loneliness and boredom, that being the reason, is 30 to 40%. So you can literally like you said you were bored and you reached out to an ex, like it literally happens for men, like when they're bored, you know and you know their H word horny, like let me see what she's doing on Friday night or let me see if she's. You know, like honestly, I'm just being honest, like this is 30 to 40%. And then sexual interest and hookup motivation is like 25 to 30%. Emotional comfort is 20%. Guilt believe it or not is actually 10%.
Johnna:Okay, let's. Let's talk about that for a second. Why would someone reach out out of guilt but still not want to be with you?
Meenu:So they reach out again. It is to self-soothe themselves. Does that make sense?
Johnna:because they're feeling guilty for how they treated you exactly.
Meenu:It is like we want to make amends, but not make amends in a way that they're all selflessly thinking about you.
Johnna:You know they want to feel better about themselves going back to the our episode of the people pleasing. So it's like I don't want her to think of me in a negative light, him or her, I don't want them to think of me in a negative light. So I know we ended poorly. I feel guilty about that. Let me reach out and make sure we're cool. Okay, that makes sense, it's a form of people pleasing.
Meenu:It's also a form of like self-soothing. But you know, the worst part is like, if you've done this and if you're doing this, like yeah, you're like self soothing but you're also being extremely selfish and not considering how the other person feels when you reach out, that's like super. If you really love that person, you would leave them alone. You know, that's that's what I would say. And then get this genuine desire to reconnect and work things out is 10% desire to reconnect and work things out is 10%, which now going to these statistics of reconciling.
Johnna:So if we're saying 10% of people truly only reach out because they want to reconcile with an ex, then my statistics that I have about reconciling are like people who have on and off like on again, off again relationships 60% of young adults report being in an on and off relationship at least once in their life, and then only 40 to 50% who try to get back together. Or sorry, 40 to 50% of those people try to get back together with their ex, but only less than 15% stay together.
Meenu:Exactly so. It's kind of matches in some way or another.
Meenu:Like that's why it's like, because when they get back together, it's almost like you don't know if it's love, you don't know if it's fear, you don't know the primary motivation behind giving this person an opportunity. It is very rarely true love. I have seen so many women, especially and I'm I'm very proud to say this right now, because women are really evolving and changing, which is amazing but I've seen it in my practice, which is like they don't want to be alone. Sometimes, when exes reach out, they're like if they're single, they're like okay, you know what? Even though it was toxic, it seems very familiar. So I want to work with something that I already know rather than starting over with a stranger. So I'm going to go back to familiarity, and the problem with that is you're going back to familiarity that is the comfort, yeah and comfort, and you're going back to something that is already done.
Meenu:And X is an X for a reason.
Johnna:Yeah, now I do think that there are certain situations where, if it was the wrong timing like, let's say that y'all got along, everything was great, you had a good connection, you had good chemistry, but maybe one person wasn't ready for a relationship and one person was, and you go your separate ways because of the timing, because it was just just, I don't know, maybe they had to move for a job, or you know the timing and then like and then you don't speak for like a year or two, and then they come back and then like, then they reach out because they genuinely are like you know what? I'm back in town and I miss her and I actually really think I'm ready for a relationship, and then they're both on the same page and the timing is correct. I think that's the 10% that typically work, because it would have worked then had had the what's the word, not the timing, but like your past, I guess, or what you're both wanting is this exact same at the time.
Meenu:No, absolutely. And then there are also situations when, believe it or not, it's not common in America, but it's very common in Indian culture and some other cultures where, you know, sometimes couples break up for their parents. Oh okay, because parents didn't approve them you know, oh, okay yeah that makes sense.
Meenu:And then, for religious reasons, you know like couples break up for that, and so they would perfectly have been getting along in a relationship for one year or two years or four years however long they're dating but they were separated due to, like, completely external situations.
Meenu:Yeah, they decided to do that to like not create chaos in the entire family and then, for some reasons, they decide to do the work or decide to, you know, come back and reconcile, when that is like love, right, because it's like it's not coming from anything else, it's not coming from ego, it's not coming from loneliness. That means okay, now we clearly have different values, where we've decided not to listen to our parents and we are deciding to like make this work. So, again, like I said that, 10% to our parents, yeah, and we are deciding to like make this work. So, again, like I said that, 10%. Again, it's just 10%. So it's like very rare, but what happens, especially with women? Because our limbic system, our limbic brain, is like larger, right, we're more driven by emotions and we're more driven by feelings. So, generally, when an ex reaches out, women tend to create stories based on the narrative that they have in their mind.
Johnna:Yeah.
Meenu:And a lot of women.
Johnna:I think that story is typically like oh, they reached out, they care.
Meenu:Exactly, they care, they want to make this work. You know they talk to me. They probably are miserable without me, like whatever, whatever the reason is, but you got to really. This is where right. I mean and I say this with a lot of kindness, guys, it's like emotions and feelings are really great when it comes to oh my God, a lion is chasing you, You're afraid, Run for your life, or you know it's good for certain things like survival based, but emotions and feelings are really bad indicators for making good decisions.
Johnna:Yes, they are, trust me. I have had to practice and practice and practice. When I'm in a heightened emotional state, put the phone down. Put the phone down, especially if there's alcohol involved. Put it down.
Meenu:Absolutely, Absolutely. Emotions are just. You got to think about it this way. Emotions are so, so, so temporary. If feelings and emotions are so temporary, why would you make a life-changing decision based on that?
Johnna:Yeah, well, yes, and like the example I gave earlier, there's probably one, maybe two people that I've dated where it was just wrong timing Like I'm not saying that that's my person or whatever. If they came back around it would. I could see myself dating them again, because it was simply for the fact that we were just in two places. I was ready to move forward with the relationship and they weren't.
Meenu:Right, exactly, and I've heard like stories like that too with my friends lives, you know, they had to separate for religious reasons and then when they came back they were really able to like make some things work, like they got along great and they just had different values. They just decided, oh, we're not going to care about our family. But then when they came back they were still that power couple, you know, and I've seen situations like that. So definitely 1000% there and then get this 10% reach out because they want to know what's happening in your life.
Johnna:Well, mine can just listen to the podcast and know what's happening in your life, and then our jealousy Like jealousy.
Meenu:Yeah, let's see. Maybe they see on social media that you're moving on or you're dating someone else and you know things like that. And to get the details to like feed off of that energy, like it's just, it's just crazy.
Johnna:Yeah, Someone told me I need a male's perspective on this podcast and sometimes you don't. I have had that. I've asked other. You know, guys, it's hard when all my male friends are actually not talk like they're not toxic men. So I've tried to have my male friends on the podcast and ask them these questions and they're like who would do that? I'm like y'all are not making this easy to ask y'all questions. If you're like what man does that? And I'm like who am I dating? If y'all don't do that, you know what I'm saying. So, yes, I agree with that. But sometimes I do think like having a male's perspective on what they feel, because what I can't write my round my mind, around a brain, man or woman, that's like I'm with somebody but I'm still don't want them with somebody else. So I'm gonna reach out and disrupt the peace, like to me that just doesn't make much logic if you have a significant other that you are with.
Meenu:Yeah, it's a sense of control. They don't like to lose their control. Do you understand? Like because think about it this way Like if you are already with someone, that means it's indicating to them that they don't have that special place in your heart. But they didn't want it Exactly. But it's so interesting. There's this terrible example. What did they say? It's like you don't eat your own lunch, but you didn't want it Exactly. But it's so interesting. There's this terrible example. What did they say? It's like you don't eat your own lunch, but you don't want to share your lunch with someone.
Johnna:It's like it's true, Like I meal prep all the time and I'm like I don't want this.
Meenu:Yeah, it's literally like that.
Johnna:It's like people want what they can't have always, and I guess that's why I have a hard time dating, because it's like at the end of the day, I used to think and I think you could probably relate, a lot of women can relate we were fed this idea that there's a perfect relationship, there's one, one person you'll ever love, there's a soulmate, and that's it right, and it's this long lasting love.
Johnna:I no longer believe that.
Johnna:I believe that you could love a lot of people and I believe that the person that you love and loves you back is like on the same path, has the same thought process in a relationship, communicates very well, because it's not going to be perfect in that situation always.
Johnna:But if people are willing to open their mind, like, for example, I'm not saying I want to open a relationship by any means, I'm just saying if someone came up to me and said you know, this is what I've been thinking, that person should be able to feel comfortable enough to come to me and say, hey, here's my thoughts, this is what I've been thinking, what are your thoughts, and then listen to my thoughts and then make an agreed upon decision as a couple together. Right, and that's just like. I use that because it's kind of so far out there that somebody would be like what? But too many people are afraid to communicate that because the other person might be like excuse me, you can just leave this relationship if that's what you want, but that person was trying to communicate to you before the cheated right.
Meenu:Oh, 1000%. Oh, my God girl, I hear this all the time. I hear this all the time. There is always communication in some form or another. Sometimes it's verbal, sometimes it's not verbal. Yeah, the more you tend to avoid it, that's when you're in for surprises, right? The red flags are always there, the doubts are always there, they always have been there, and I see like people beating themselves up by saying, oh, I can't believe they did this all of a sudden. What's?
Johnna:it all of a sudden.
Meenu:It's never, never. Patterns are always repetitive. Yeah, it's never, never, ever, all of a sudden, never ever, all of a sudden, never ever all of a sudden.
Johnna:But I guess where I was going with that was, I feel like it's and again, not putting men down, because I obviously I'm not a man we can only speak from the female's perspective. I feel like sometimes, when the exes are circling back and the woman still so emotionally attached or involved or telling themselves a story about it, that's what makes it so difficult and it makes it makes it hard for me to understand the thought process, like I know that you obviously understand the thought process because you coach both men and women and you are a coach, so you kind of understand the psychology behind it. But for me, since I don't do that, like I'm not saying I don't reach out to exes, I have, but usually if I'm reaching out to an ex it's because I still have feelings for them. I'm not just reaching out randomly for attention, it's because I want attention from the person I like. So I guess my brain just can't understand it.
Meenu:Well, I think the easiest way to understand is you're a woman and he's a man. Remember, women are more driven by emotion. You literally said I feel like I want, you know, like, yeah, you see that even the statement is like feeling like I want to do this and getting back together or, you know, potentially rekindling things, and that's more common in women. However, for man it's they don't operate like that. So this is what I'll say to like women listening to this if an ex reaches out, do not create a story. You are absolutely most likely wrong until you have facts. Until you have facts, don't create a story. If your brain creates a story, tell your brain Guess what brain. We don't have facts. We want to believe something because it makes us. What does it make us feel Very good, right, it makes us feel chosen, it makes us feel like they value us, it gives us an internal ego boost. It does all those things, and but we can't decide on anything until we have real facts. So I'll always say facts over fiction, facts over fiction.
Johnna:Yeah, I agree, I agree with that. So how do we like we know kind of when people are coming back and we know that, like you've mentioned the ego, you've mentioned attention and things like that.
Meenu:Yeah, wanting control, attention, sex yeah.
Johnna:So how do we, like we recognize that. So then, how do we stand in our power with that? And then how do we break that cycle? Or, like you said, until you know the facts? How do we get the facts if they're not willing to give them?
Meenu:I mean, I think that itself answers the question, right. If they're not willing to give the facts, then they're like reaching out again, probably for the other reasons, which is maybe boredom, maybe sex, maybe control, because if the person that's not willing to give the facts, it's those reasons. If a person is giving the facts, it's usually because they want to reconcile, it's usually because they're stepping in with intention. Yeah, because what is facts? Facts is like giving you a statement with intention, right. So that's how you know. But stepping into the power, I mean it honestly all boils down.
Johnna:And I hate to be the cliche person to say this, but it boils down to self-love. Yeah, no, you're right.
Meenu:You're right Because someone who loves themselves and demands respect for themselves would not tolerate that type of behavior, because you would be like nah, exactly Because, think about it this way, like it's like, and let me, let me help you out, maybe you know, maybe let me help you out. Let's say, an ex is reaching out right now and you don't know. You know why. I think the first ice breaking question you need to be is like hey, what was your motivation or your intention to reach out now? Just start there before assuming, start there before dreaming, start there before creating stories. Just out now, just start there before assuming, start there before dreaming, start there before creating stories, just start there. And then, if they say, oh, I want to like, reconcile you know, I'm talking about the 10% If they say I want to reconcile, I want to rekindle, I want to do this, then the next magic question that needs to be asked is what has changed?
Meenu:Because we broke up for a reason. What has shifted and what has changed that you think that this is going to be different this time again, it's not that, oh, I miss you, I love you, I can't live without you. Sure, because guess what I told you about feelings? They're temporary. Yeah, because once they have you, maybe all those feelings will be gone, right, right, and we got to come back to what's the fact, what actually changed?
Meenu:right is the? What is the chance that it's actually going to work out the second time? Okay, that's not sound enough. If that's not good enough and if it's wishy-washy, then again you got to go back to do you really want to put yourself through all that all over again? And I'll talk to you about this.
Meenu:So I once dated a man who was super, super avoidant. Okay, anytime I was in my power, he would be all over me, he would DM me, he would message me, he would text me, he would call me, like he was. You know, he was like oh I, you know, I really choose you, you're the one for me, like all those like long messages, and I'm like, oh my God. And anytime I became comfortable, he would. He was like boom, I'm, you know, I'm gonna right there. Yeah, I'm gonna run, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that.
Meenu:And then at first, you know, I was like, oh, poor him, maybe he needs to like work through this. And because you know the problem with working in mental health and you know it's because you it's hard for you to judge anyone you start to have compassion for everyone, you start to try to understand everyone. Yeah, yeah, and so like I. But it was like that for me and I was, I was trying to do that, and then I was like, damn, if this was my client, then what would I, what would I say, you know, and thankfully we were never in a relationship we were like in just in the initial stages of like situationship yeah, like very initial stages of dating, and I was like you know what?
Meenu:this is not healthy for my nervous system. This is like toxic for my nervous system and this is the sad part. The women that settled for this typically had one or two parental figures. That never gave them consistent stability, never gave them consistent. That never gave them consistent stability, never gave them consistent safety, never gave them consistent love. So because they never gave that consistency and it's familiar to your subconscious and an unconscious brain, even though you hate it, you still stick around.
Johnna:Yeah, you just described me. No, I, you know, I had a conversation with a friend the other day and just told him that you know, like, because I used to say that our story, like I used to say that my story didn't matter, I would always like it doesn't matter. People's had it worse, but your story does matter, because if people don't know your story, they can't understand why you move the way you move. And so, like, I had to explain to my friend, you know, I was like, listen, like, and I said exactly what you just said. I said, sometimes because I had to fight so hard for my parents attention and love, I said that I chase men that I'm dating to fight for that attention and that love. Because I think subconsciously and I don't know this to be true or not, but you can tell me I think subconsciously, if I win them over, then I wasn't unlovable and then it didn't matter that my parents didn't do that, Because if I can win them, then I won my parents.
Meenu:Exactly, exactly, and so it is coming from a space of deep wounding and it is also coming from a place, actually, of like that ego. When I say ego doesn't mean like a negative thing.
Johnna:It's coming from that fulfillment to your own ego, that, by the way, I can still win this. Yeah, and like you said earlier, like when you just said and that's a pattern I see a lot in dating, and that's something like when me and my aunt talk, I'm like I can't stand, like playing these games. I was like I don't want to have to be so powerful, stand in power, be the masculine energy all the time and then once I am ready to be comfortable and fall into my feminine energy and like give that over, they then don't want me anymore.
Meenu:Yeah, exactly To me that's games.
Meenu:It is games. It is games, but you know the and it's so interesting. So talking from the other, again coming from a coach's perspective, and talking from the other, again coming from a coach's perspective, and talking from the other person's perspective, because I've actually also coached avoidance is they are deathly afraid, you know, because they have worthiness issues. So they're like constantly thinking Am I good enough for this person, am I good enough for the situation, am I good enough for myself? So they constantly they're having this push and pull because they also get this traumatic childhood.
Johnna:No right, and a lot of people what I've heard. Because I'm obviously an anxious attachment style, I tend to chase avoidance and I follow the psychologist online and he says that anxious attachment styles typically always match up with avoidance, because avoids avoid and it triggers that anxiety and the anxious and then you chase exactly and then it makes them avoid, right, and also remember that all of this is dopamine.
Meenu:Dopamine, it's like that winning losing cycle, winning and then space, and then winning and then, and then gaps, and then winning and then losing, like that whole thing creates this huge pattern of dopamine in your brain. And, and guess what guys, dopamine is addictive.
Johnna:Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Meenu:Very addictive. Even though it's toxic, it still releases dopamine, which causes an addictive cycle. But once you realize that this is all just chemicals and nothing is facts, and this is where you have to really root yourself. It's just chemicals, it's not facts. It's just chemicals. It's is facts, and this is where you have to really root yourself. It's just chemicals, it's not facts. It's just chemicals, it's not facts. The more you root yourself in that and you take some time and distance, then you're going to be fine. My biggest request to you all, whether you're a man or a woman listening to this, is don't act out of feeling. Don't act out of feelings. Yes, love is a feeling, but love is also a verb and love is also a choice.
Johnna:Yeah. So do you think that, like if an ex is circling back and they are an avoidant, there is a possibility that they could want to reconcile, but because they're an avoidant they can't admit that to themselves, or you?
Meenu:Yeah, absolutely they can. Sometimes they can. I've actually, you know the person that I was talking about with the one that I dated. He knew he was avoidant, he knew he knew what he was doing but he couldn't control it because get this because he wasn't willing to change.
Johnna:So they have to, they have to recognize that they have this avoidant pattern style. And I'm sorry, I'm not going to say you can't do this with self-help books or do it on your own, but I really think that someone who hasn't an anxious avoidant attachment style needs to work with someone, because I, excuse me, was struggling with my anxious attachment style and I was running everybody away pretty much essentially, and then that's when I was like you know what, I can't do this anymore. I mean, you please help me, please coach me.
Meenu:Really. I mean, I think the self help books are great and you know, all these, like I said, like if you're self led and you want to do that and you have your process, like do it. But at the end of the day, like when you have somebody holding you accountable, you know, looking at your patterns, observing you closely, observing the situation closely, that's a different kind of lens that it's really nice to have. It's really nice to have that support Plus. Think about it this way yeah, You're probably, you know, trying to like not spend too much money on a coach or a therapist or whatever self, but you're wasting a ton of time in these books and if you're not getting results, you're wasting time and you can get time back. But you can always make money back.
Johnna:Yeah, agreed, 1000%.
Meenu:And then so to come back to the story with this person, I I mean I cut ties completely like permanently blocked, permanently erased from everything. Because, guess what, my dad was not avoidant, he was there for me, he was secure, he was a secure male figure in my life. So for me, and avoidant, it feels like a wreck to my nervous system and I'm like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna do that to me it's.
Johnna:It seems normal, it seems normal, it's yeah, here.
Meenu:Yeah, I think the real healing comes from knowing that, okay, even though it's normal, it's familiar, it's still damaging to my spirit, it's still damaging to my goals and where I want to be and because we all like even though I don't have this particular issue, I don't, you know, attract a white and men I still, you know, have other subconscious wounds that I've healed with, healed through multiple times in my life, like people pleasing, especially right.
Johnna:Yeah.
Meenu:But I think you always can can decide. If you really want to, I think you can decide. Yeah, I mean.
Johnna:I do too. I think you always can decide. If you really want to, I think you can decide. Yeah, I mean, I do too. I think you can, but you have to recognize it, you 1,000.
Meenu:Oh yeah, nothing can happen, like if you are not aware of, like, where you're at, you can't heal.
Johnna:Right and then, once you are aware, like we've said multiple times on this podcast, once you are aware, it's then a choice.
Meenu:It is a choice. Yeah, Because that is also a choice. I'll tell you that because and a lot of people don't choose that They'll be like yeah, I'm this way. I guess I'm this way. I don't know, I guess I'm this way. It's too late for me to change.
Johnna:Yeah, it is, and that's why you, I guess, trauma bond with people, trauma bond with people and then you know when you've healed from trauma.
Meenu:Remember, we talked about addictive cycles. We also talked about how addiction is dopamine. So you're addicted to dopamine, which is when we use our phones, when we watch certain things. It's all, like you know, producing that chemical in our brain. And trauma, as crazy as it sounds, also causes dopamine. So when that dopamine goes away and when you're healing the trauma.
Meenu:It's going to be really boring. Yeah, it's going to feel like boredom because you're not having the spikes, you know. But remember, boredom is not bad, it's safe. It's safe. It's probably what your body needs.
Johnna:Yeah, not desires, but needs deep down yeah, no, I've heard that because I know we've done podcast episodes where I've talked about like when I've dated people in the past, I was like this is boring and you were like they were probably the right one for you because they weren't like making me feel crazy all the time.
Meenu:Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, this is. This is some good stuff. I feel like a lot of people need to hear this.
Johnna:So as far as like breaking the cycle for good, so like some talking points or like some questions that I had was like some things that you've told me in our sessions and things that I want to bring up and like maybe you can elaborate on them for us is that you've told me you teach people how to treat you. So if you're continuing to allow this person to circle it in your life and you know you take them back, take them back. Take them back when there is no serious. Now, like you said, if they were serious to reconcile, there would be a deep conversation and you you wouldn't have questions, you would have your answers. So would you say that is part of the problem. I guess I'm saying I would be part of the problem if I continue to allow, allow, allow, allow, because then that person is like I don't respect her, she doesn't respect herself.
Meenu:No, absolutely. Oh my God and I hate to say this it kind of sucks when I say this, but it's true but absence and scarcity really creates fondness. Absence and scarcity really creates that respect. You know, I have seen the way people treat me when I have fully cut them out and they come out as a different person, the way they treat me is completely different and I've fully cut them out and.
Meenu:I've fully, as a different person. The way they treat me is completely different, yeah, and I've fully cut them out and a fully like stepped into my power and respect myself. The way they treat me is very different, and I think this is where I'm not saying you, but people that allow this have to take massive responsibility. Because you're enabling that too. You're enabling the behavior. Then you're picking up that phone call. You're enabling that behavior when you're responding to that text. You're enabling the behavior when you're picking up that phone call. You're enabling that behavior when you're responding to that text. You're enabling that behavior constantly.
Johnna:Yeah, I have a friend and we had a conversation about this. I was like you know, we can sit here and blame the other person all day long, but at the end of the day, we do have to take responsibility in our feelings. So, for example, if I'm continuing to let someone circle back in my life and I'm continuing to be the one crying and upset, I have to also take responsibility. Sure, should they be respectful and not do that? Sure, they should, but that doesn't mean I can control them. I can control me, though, and if I don't want to continue to feel that way, then stop it.
Meenu:Yeah, then just really I'm telling you cold turkey, like just just cut them off. Cold turkey, just stop it, it go.
Johnna:No contact, there's, there's power and no contact, Like it's. It's brutal, it's very hard, but and sometimes I think, like you know, we see people addicted to alcohol, we see people addicted to drugs and we will look at someone and I'm not saying judge them, but in our brains may go. I don't understand that, but at the end of the day, it's no different than this toxic cycle right here, because someone would look at us and go what the hell Like? Why are you continuing to play in this loop?
Meenu:Yeah, 1000%. I'll give you an example of things like this. And then things like eating, you know, like sugar addiction and caffeine addiction, drugs, alcohol, Sure drugs and alcohol are more like extreme. But there's so many addictive patterns that we all have which we minimize, thinking oh, it's not that bad, and then we secretly judge the other people that are addicted to drugs and stuff. But sorry, you're also in an addictive loop.
Johnna:Yep, right Now. I know sometimes it's because we lose trust in ourselves like we feel like we can't do that. So how could someone like if they're listening to this, build trust in themselves again after letting someone back in repeatedly so that they could be like I trust myself to let this go?
Meenu:You know, okay, this is again, this is going to be hard, but the self trust is only going to come when you do the right thing. The self-trust is not going to come from a feeling, because some people, what they're doing is they're desperately waiting for the feeling.
Meenu:They're waiting to feel empowered. They're waiting to feel confident. They're waiting to feel like fuck them, I'm good. They're waiting that. You know that surge of ego and that surge of power. But the worst part about it is you're going to keep waiting Because you take the action, you're not going to feel the feeling in these cases. I'll give you an example. You can read about driving a car, you can watch videos about driving a car, but until you drive a car, you're not going to feel confident that you can drive a car Right right. Until you do the action, until you take that you can drive a car Right right. Until you do the action, until you take the step which is cutting them off, which is not responding to that energy, until you do that, you're never, ever going to get confident.
Johnna:And that when you said that, that just literally was like oh, that makes so much sense, because in nurse practitioner school, like we had to learn to suture right. So I sutured on a pig first and it was very scary and the skin's not the same as a human skin and obviously the pig was dead. And so then when I sutured for the first time, I was like very, very nervous. And then, once I did it over and over and over again, I was like oh, this is easy, exactly, and everything is a muscle.
Meenu:Think about it this way Maybe self-respect is not a muscle that you grew up with or something that you cultivated in your way, but I'm telling you, it can be developed anytime. It's like literally going to the gym and suddenly working out new muscle groups. It's going to pain, it's going to hurt, it's going to hurt like crazy, but you don't stop that. That's when the work starts. You're just starting.
Meenu:Yeah, yeah, I love that I see a lot of people you know make terrible decisions based on feelings oh, I didn't feel like doing this, so I didn't. I wasn't drawn to doing this.
Johnna:It feels good in the moment oh, it's the like I said.
Meenu:Feelings are the worst, guys. I mean it's like, yeah, if, if you're scared and you want to run away from a lion, sure it's useful, but if there is a survival-based situation, it's useful, but it's very useless, and most of the times it's very useless.
Johnna:Yeah, no, I agree. How would you tell someone like how could they distinguish true closure, like from that person, from self-abandonment, masked-abandonment, masked as quote unquote, being the bigger person, like I'm just doing this to be the bigger person, like I guess I'm like how do you truly know that it's closure versus I'm abandoning the situation, I'm walking away from something that I don't know. That could have been real, could have been great.
Meenu:And this is this is really tricky. I feel like even in the question there is like unresolved things, right, it's like, oh, how do I know if I'm not abandoning them, or how do I know if I have? Okay, the way you know. First of all, let me talk about closure. The way you know you have closure is there is a level of indifference okay there's no hate because, remember, the opposite of love is not hate.
Meenu:Yes, opposite of love is indifference. Yes, a lot of people think the opposite of love is hate and there's still a strong emotion exactly, I hate him. I don't want to talk like all that is sure your friends are probably like fuck, fuck him, you hate him. That's great Fueling the ego, but when you hate someone they're actually more in your mind than when you love someone.
Johnna:You're right.
Meenu:You're right Because you're sitting there constantly obsessing like yeah, yeah. So closure, the way you know you have closure is you're indifferent. You know you don't hate them, you don't love them, and you know I'm I'm somebody like with my exes, like I'm somebody that's like I always want you to eat, but not in my table. So I wish you well. Even if you've been toxic, even if you've caused me pain, I still wish you well, because that's just that's who I am. I'm not saying everybody has to be like that. I so wish you well, but I, apart from that, there's nothing there. It's like very indifferent, yeah, sense, yeah, that's how I know. Oh, yeah, it's, it's done. It's like sense, yeah. And then the other part of the question is like are you abandoning them? I mean, I don't know, I don't know. It depends on where the relationship ended, how the relationship ended. Did you abandon them to protect yourself? Then I don't even think that. Then that's abandonment, then that that's self-protection, you know. But I will say this, guys like I think what you're meaning to ask is like probably not doing the work and cutting it, cutting it off just to run away, and that again is also going to bite you later because you're not doing the inner work. It's like an inner work, and if you ask me, how does the inner work look like?
Meenu:Okay, why did I? Which part of me said yes to this person? Why did I? Which part of me said yes to this person? Which part of me that needed healing, that I didn't give to myself, that that person gave yes, right, maybe you don't see yourself that much. And this person whenever you were with them, they really saw you for who you are, yeah, yeah. And so what does that indicate? That indicates that maybe you need yeah, yeah. And so what does that indicate? That indicates that maybe you need to see yourself more, you need to love yourself more, you need to give whatever that person gave you. You need to start identifying. What is it? Why am I addicted to this person? What did they give me that I'm currently not giving to myself? And when you start giving that to yourself, you're going to notice oh, I don't, I don't need them to give, giving to myself. And when you start giving that to yourself, you're going to notice oh, I don't, I don't need them to give it to me.
Johnna:Right, no, that makes a lot of sense because you're chasing that, that feeling You're chasing the feeling You're never again.
Meenu:guys, you're never chasing the man, the person the woman, you're chasing the feeling.
Johnna:Right, and it's so funny that when we talked about doing this podcast, I had something come up on Instagram that I saw, that like really resonated that kind of correlated with this podcast and it said they are not rejecting you, they're rejecting the person they have to become to be with you 1000% and they don't. Yeah, and like, if the person doesn't want to do the work to change to be with you, then they don't want to be with you.
Meenu:Yeah, literally. But this person that I was talking to you about earlier, like I, I kind of indirectly told him like dude, you're, you're too toxic for me, like I'm, I'm too secure for you, like, just, you know, no, I can't, you know I can't, I can't do that. So, so that that's a very yeah, they don't have the capacity to handle it.
Johnna:I think sometimes that people can just sniff out the insecurities in people and they're like, oh yeah, I got this one.
Meenu:Oh, easily, easily, easily, easily, because, like the things that you talk about too much sometimes I feel like when people talk too much, they just give away a lot.
Johnna:Yeah, I'm bad about that. Like I think I can't remember if it was you or my aunt who told me like when I would go on a first date because I was so nervous. I just talked a lot and I'm such an honest and blunt person. If someone asked me a question I would just tell them everything. And someone was like sometimes you're giving the playbook away, you're telling them how to play, you what you because if you push what, how, what takes you like, what makes you vulnerable.
Johnna:What? Yeah, and like you. If you talk about your past relationships a lot and like you're like, yeah, I really hated this, then they try everything in the beginning to do opposite of what you hated, so that you're like, oh my gosh, they're opposite of this guy. But then they're really actually the same and it's like the bait and switch yeah, oh, oh, oh, my God, absolutely, absolutely, like.
Meenu:I've seen it happen time and time and time and time. And then I also want to like, really like, quickly, like touch on limerence and I think we talked briefly, touched on it when we were texting. So limerence is actually this feeling which feels like love. It's almost very tricky, but it's not love, it's almost like it's, it's a trauma response. So person is like, giving you the attention and the validation you think that, oh, this is love, this is how love feels like, but then it's kind of an addictive thing. So how do you know if it's limerence or love? You know it because in love you actually feel secure, you're not, you're not obsessive, obsessing about that person.
Johnna:You're not when I looked it up, cause I'd never heard of this. So like, so the act like when I looked it up, like here's to know, like limerence, they call it obsessive infatuation, so intense emotional highs and lows. Obsessive thinking about the person, fantasizing more than experiencing reality, focusing on what could be, not what is. Your self-worth is tied to their attention or validation. Craving signs. They feel the same anxiety when there's distance or silence. It's often one-sided or ambiguous, fueled by uncertainty, rejection or lack of closure can feel addictive or out of control.
Meenu:You're in love with the potential, not the person always, limerence is always so, so, so, so tricky, and I've yeah, it is tricky.
Johnna:I've seen people confuse limerence and love so many times when, then, they say like love is calm, stable, secure, grows through time. It's not intense shared commitment, effort and vulnerability, acceptance of flows and real life and compatibility, mutual care, communication and consistency. You feel your full self around them. You can be your full self around them. No performance or guessing, no games. You're seen, chosen and respected. It doesn't consume you. It supports you. It's peaceful, not chaotic. Love builds safety.
Meenu:It does not provoke anxiety 1000% and you're also not constantly questioning how do they feel about me? That happens with limerence a lot. Whenever you're in limerence, you're like I think I'm.
Johnna:Now that you've told me this, I'm like I think maybe, maybe I haven't ever been in love, Maybe it's all been limerence.
Meenu:That's why I'm talking about this, because a lot of us haven't really. You know, we think it was love, but it's actually limerence.
Johnna:Yeah, when you told me that cause, I was like. You were like have you ever heard of this? I was like no, and I looked it up. I was like, well, I'll be damned. I was like have I ever been in love?
Meenu:Yeah, probably not. Yet you know, we don't know Anytime that anxious loop is there. It's never. I'm telling you guys, like love feels good and safe, it feels good. You're not wondering, you're not overthinking, you don't have to want.
Johnna:Yeah, you don't have to worry. If I do this, are they gonna leave? If I say this, are they gonna get upset? Are they gonna? You know, yeah, I've been in a lot of relationships where it's like, uh, because I, I do like to communicate and then, like I'm scared sometimes to say the things that are on my mind, because I'm like, how are they going to respond? Are they going to leave? Are they going to get mad? You know.
Meenu:And then let me tell you this before, before we wrap up or with more questions limerence is actually more common in affairs. Oh, really, yes, you know, and I'll tell you why. The reason is because maybe they're not getting along with their husband and then there's this other guy who's like giving them the attention and the validation. What limerence also makes you do is it makes you villainize your husband more. And I'm not saying your husband is like partner, is perfect or whatever, but because there's this like intense feelings with this other person, unconsciously you start putting them on a pedestal and then you're like, oh, my husband doesn't do this, like he doesn't. But then get this, get this, this person that you're infatuating over, that person is not your husband. They're not sharing your bills, they're not, you know, sharing the room. They're not in the messy house with you. They're not around you when you have a tantrum or when you're angry or when you're sad. So the messy house with you, they're not around you when you have a tantrum or when you're angry or when you're sad. So that's how you know what's limerence and love, because with limerence you haven't experienced all of it, but you think it's love. But with love you've gone through the thick and thin of the whole situation. You've been through all of it and you still have that feeling. You still feel that security With lim limerence.
Meenu:You're only fantasizing and and you know how to check. If you're on limerence, think about it. Have you had a bunch of conflicts with this person? How do they handle these conflicts? Are they running from these conflicts? If you've and I always say this, like to my clients that are like in the beginning process of dating, starting to date, and they're like, oh my god, this guy or this woman is fantastic, I'll be like wait until you disagree on a few things, just wait you know, yeah, and see how the communication goes because how a person handles conflict is going to determine everything.
Meenu:It is not how they handle the good times. How are they? Are they lovable when we're happy? Are they showing up when everything is smooth? That speaks nothing, that's nothing. But how are they when there is a disagreement? When you're saying no, I don't agree with you. I think you hurt my feelings.
Johnna:How are they handling it If they don't care that they hurt your feelings? They walk out the door, they run away and say you know what, Bye, because you said something I don't like.
Meenu:Um, I'll talk to you in a couple weeks exactly, and so that's how you know if it's limerence or infatuation or love, yeah, like if it's love, if it's that intentions with love, then it will stand through a lot of things no, that makes a lot of sense.
Johnna:So, um, to wrap this up, I do want to say, like, if someone is circling back, guy or girl X, whatever, just remember you are not hard to love, you are just hard, or you are just easy to manipulate.
Meenu:And the more you allow it, the more you're, you know, obviously like making them think that, okay, this is an easy target, okay, she's, she's allowing it. So if she's allowing it, then I can keep doing the same thing. Remember, like loving somebody and respecting somebody is different. Like that person, even with loving intentions, if they reach out to you, they may still not respect you because you continually encourage that behavior.
Johnna:Yeah, no, yeah. And guys, we say this like we understand, like we've been in this situation. It's not as easy as us sitting here saying, oh, just don't allow it. Like, trust me, I've been there, it's not. It's not that easy, cause when you feel like you love this person and you don't know like you love them but maybe they don't reciprocate, it is hard to close that door and close that chapter.
Meenu:It is because you're still living in that potential and you're still having that dream version in your head, thinking, oh, what if he changes this time? Or what if she's different this time? And maybe I can give this a shot Again facts over fiction, guys. Facts over fiction. Facts over emotions. Facts over stories.
Johnna:Agreed. Thank you so much for always doing these episodes with me, and if anyone is out there and they're a male perspective and want to jump on a podcast with me and you, we invite it, we welcome it. We don't want anyone to think that we're just trying to come from the female perspective but unfortunately, guys, we're females and that's how our brain operates.
Meenu:Yes, but also to give you another layer of like comfort is that I do have a lot of male clients. Yes, I do coach a lot of males and you know they go through something similar. But, and I tell you this, the advice is the same for both genders. Right? It never changes. Right, Never changes.
Johnna:No, I agree. I just you know when. When someone reaches out to you and says you need a male perspective on there, I welcome it. It's not that I'm not welcoming it.
Meenu:Oh yeah, we welcome all the perspectives, so thank you so much for doing this. I feel like this is, I think, that the tensions that's going on in dating and relationships between men and women. I think this is really needed right now, so I'm really glad you always pick the best topic, so I'm super grateful.
Johnna:Well, thanks to my life and the examples in it. All right, guys, until next time. Bye.
Meenu:Bye-bye you.
