Babbles Nonsense
Welcome to my verbal diary where I want to discuss any and all things that is essentially on my mind or have wondered about. Sometimes I will be solo and then other times I will have some amazing guests to bring all different perspectives in life. The ultimate goal is to hopefully bring some joy, laughter, inspiration, education, and just maybe a little bit of entertainment. Don't forget to like, rate, and share the podcast with a friend!
Babbles Nonsense
Love Can, In Fact, Be Calculated w/ Zoey Charif
#184: What if everything you've been told about finding love is wrong? What if the secret to lasting relationships isn't chemistry or luck, but actually a mathematical formula that can predict compatibility with stunning accuracy?
In this mind-blowing conversation, relationship theorist and data analyst Zoey Charif reveals the science behind why we choose certain partners and why those relationships succeed or fail. Drawing from hundreds of relationship surveys and years of research, she breaks down her groundbreaking formula that shows the perfect relationship occurs when partners score approximately 4% higher than our self-worth. Any less creates a downward spiral where both partners stop putting in effort. And this can happen at any point, even after a relationship begins.
The data reveals surprising truths that challenge everything we thought we knew about attraction. People with the highest self-scores were actually the ones who initiated breakups, refusing to settle for unfulfilling relationships. What appears as "avoidant attachment" might simply be a score mismatch where the person doesn't value you as highly as you value them. And that intense chemistry you feel for someone who keeps disappearing? It might be your extreme emotional personality type being drawn to traits over values.
Whether you're struggling with dating apps, recovering from heartbreak, or wondering why your relationship feels off-balance, this episode offers something rare: a clear, evidence-based approach to understanding love. Because while relationships may feel magical, the data suggests they follow patterns we can understand and use to find lasting happiness.
This episode tackles relationships from a refreshingly analytical perspective that might just change how you approach love.
Find Zoey here:
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https://www.tiktok.com/@zoeycharif
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What is up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Babbles Nonsense podcast. We are continuing our topic on relationships, but this time it's a little different. We have a guest, but you guys already know I love to overthink relationships like it's my full time job and, honestly, I've done enough field research to qualify for a PhD in dating disasters. But today we're leveling up. I'm not just bringing feelings to the table, I'm bringing facts, cold hard data. My guest is Zoe Sharif.
Johnna:Author of Love Can, in Fact, be Calculated relationship theorist, data analyst and low-key love scientist with a background in criminology, meaning she can literally analyze your attachment style and tell you if it's a crime. If anyone can decode why we chase walking red flags like it's cardio, it's Zoe. We're talking compatibility patterns and how love is way less random than we think. So if you've ever said, but we had chemistry right before the emotional train wreck, this episode's for you. Let's get into it with Zoe Sharif.
Johnna:All right, guys, welcome back to another episode of the Babbles Nonsense podcast. I have Zoe Sharif here. She has a background in criminology. She's a relationship theorist, a data analyst and author of Love Can, in fact, be Calculated, and I'm super excited to have her here today because y'all have listened to a bunch of our podcasts lately, especially me and me and you, where we are talking about relationships and y'all know that's kind of what I'm going through in my personal life and dating in 2025 is just not the vibe. I don't know about y'all, but it's just not so. Welcome Zoe to the show.
Zoey:Thank you so much for having me Very excited to be here.
Johnna:I am so excited. First of all, I have to know how you went from criminology background and if you're still doing that to trying to study relationships, because how does criminology and love go hand in hand? Now, I know my people out there who love true crime would say, oh, they for sure go hand in hand, right. But like, how did you go from criminology to, like, studying relationships?
Zoey:Yeah, isn't it interesting. So when I studied criminology, I had a very laser focus on human behavior. I just wanted to understand criminality. And when I was 20, I was cheated on and I was, I think, in my third year in school. So all of a sudden my laser focus went from crime and trying to understand criminality to trying to understand love. So it was essentially the human behavior and the drives and desires that I was more trying to understand. And that's essentially how I went in the rabbit hole of love and attachment theory and behaviors. And you know how we are all wired a certain way, how it plays into our neurochemicals, and I just so happened to stumble upon a sentence that said you can't fall in love with someone unless they're a match. And I elaborated on that to calculate a match, on that, to calculate a match. And eventually, years later, I validated my theory through data analytics. And now it's a thing I'm like okay, cool, Like this actually works. The data is showing that you can calculate love.
Johnna:And that is so crazy to me because obviously that's a bold statement to say we can calculate love, because sometimes we can't even explain love ourselves or like are we actually in love with this person? So how can we calculate love? Because sometimes we can't even explain love ourselves, or like are we actually in love with this person? So how can we calculate love? Like the first thing that comes to my mind. I'm in a book club and we read this book and I wish is it called the Perfect Match? I think it is. It's a show on Netflix. It's a crazy book. I don't want to give the ending away, but I was like like this, the scientist was saying that you could have a perfect match based on DNA, and like she was matching all these people together and it was just wild. So that's the first thing that came to my mind. When you're like data analytics can calculate it. So how can we calculate love? Are you saying that we can have a perfect partner based on certain data?
Zoey:Yes, exactly. So just to give a bit of background in terms of how humans are wired as humans, our primal instinct is to procreate and our primal instinct is to create a strong offspring. What that means is your inherent drive is to connect with someone who's either at your level or better than you, because there's something in the background in your reptilian brain that says, if you are to mix your DNAs together, you want the offspring to be the best case scenario. Okay, so, with that said, we all evaluate. That's why we all have checklists I want this, I want that, blah, blah, blah, right? Well, again, the deeper layer there is because of our reptilian brain saying I want the strongest so that I have the strongest offspring, regardless if you want to have kids or not. It's just these drives that are running in the back of the mind. So, with all of that said, when you evaluate a match and calculate a match evaluate a match and calculate a match that's essentially your body and your mind saying this is who I want to be with, I'm going to try to make it work and I'm going to respect this person and I will put in my best. So there are two things here.
Zoey:In terms of how to calculate the match. First you have a self-score, and that's based on your self-worth, and then you have a partner score, and the partner score is based on how they show up against your standards and their inherent traits, which essentially just means attraction, and then you average those two out. If the self-score is a perfect match to the partner score, you are likely going to engage in a relationship and make an effort within that relationship. The beauty, though, is we found in the analytics that the perfect match happens to be when the partner score has 4% above yours, because then we're reaching a realm of admiration. So all the other groups that were broken up whether they did the breaking up, they were broken up with mutual breakup. On and off relationship the partner score was always lower, always, always, there's only one group where the partner score was higher, and that's the group where they were currently together still together.
Johnna:So when you say that it has to be both ways, right. So if I'm choosing a partner, their score needs to be four points higher than mine, and vice versa, I would be four points higher than theirs.
Zoey:Exactly, exactly. So everything is based on perception and everybody has different values. Your top five values may look different to your partner's top five values. The point here is for you to respect them right, so to score them high against your standards ie your values but also that they do the same right, Based on their values. That is the perfect relationship.
Zoey:Okay, let's assume for a second you're scoring your partner 5% less, 10% less, and again, this is what we saw in the analytics. It doesn't work, even at 5% less, unless you have mortgage or kids or other ties outside than just wanting to be together and the desire to be together. Unless you have all that, you will be unfulfilled. And here's how we interpret this data. The way it's being interpreted is when they're scoring 5% less, that means that you're not putting in your best foot forward in the relationship.
Zoey:You're not always super mindful of your communication. You're not always super mindful of whether you're being dependable or a rock, and there may be signs of I don't know if selfishness is the right word, but just you know doing things the way you want to, because why would you? Why would you? You don't admire, which is a really, you know, sucky way to say it, but that's essentially the interpretation. So what happens if you start to project that into the relationship?
Zoey:Well, your partner is going to start doing the same to you. They're going to say, well, if she's not being my rock, why would my communication be great? Or, you know, if she's not putting in her efforts towards, let's say, family, right, if that's one of his or her values, right, why would I do this for her type thing? So then two people are projecting their crap, right. Two people are projecting their lack of fulfillment and they're both getting lazy against each other's standards. And that's where we fall in the realm of on and off relationships where the partner score is minus 5%, and a mutual breakup where the partner score is minus 10%. So even if you have a slight minus, sadly there will be moments where you're projecting that into the relationship.
Johnna:The partner is likely to project it back, and then you're going to start to see the dissipation of like respect because, like and I've always said this, and I've heard other people say this and I don't know if you saw this in your research, they were I've heard a lot of times that the man actually has to be more obsessed with the woman than the woman being obsessed with the man, because then it's an imbalance or something like that. And we talk about you. You used admiration and respect that I've really liked someone and it takes me a lot to like someone. I do have that respect for them. I've noticed like little things that they do that other people, if I'm dating, would do, would annoy the crap out of me. They're doing the same thing and I'm like, oh how cute, you know.
Zoey:I totally get it. Yeah, well, here's the thing. I know that saying, and I know that John Gottman, who's like a very big relationship theorist, said that the best relationships is when the woman has influence over the man, which is another way to say her score is higher than his score and there's admiration there. But our analytics show that it's actually both ways. It's both ways. The best relationship is when the woman admires the man. Also, here's what I think we're falling into in this generation, this era.
Zoey:I think that the pool is not great, I think the pool of reliability is not great and I think that with us women, we tend to be so emotional and we love romance, we love just getting swept off our feet. But sadly, sometimes that can be love bombing and it could be done by someone who's very performative and not consistent. So when you go through enough of these relationships where you put in your all, you put in your heart and then you got super hurt, well, maybe your brain is going to go. I want something safe. So, exactly to your point, it's better for the man to be obsessed.
Zoey:Yeah, maybe it's because the woman wants to feel like she's got some control, she doesn't want to get hurt, or she's been through enough experiences where when the admiration was there from her to him were when the admiration was there from her to him, like she had her heart broken. So that's my interpretation of that because, for sure, the analytics are showing that it should be both ways. But I also know that a lot of women seek safety, and I think it's literally because of our pool right now of daters both sides right, both men and women, but also I think that women have have been very hurt in this pool. I agree.
Johnna:Now, when did you do your data? Because I know you mentioned, like to me, like in private conversation, that you've been doing this for like two decades. So how long did it take you to collect all that data with your like research, to figure out like the four points?
Zoey:Yeah Well, the theory actually started about two decades ago, but I gave it a solid push back in 2020. 2020 is when I took data analytics and we had a group project at the end of the program, so I invited five other people to research this with me. So the initial phase was 80 surveys and once I again really delved deep into writing the book and everything. I'm like, okay, the 80 surveys is not enough. So then I purchased more surveys through a company and also I needed to make the distribution more aligned. So I had more of one age group than another group.
Zoey:I think I had more women than men, right? So essentially, I gathered more data to make sure that I had more of one age group than another group. I think I had more women than men, right? So essentially, I gathered more data to make sure that I had an equal distribution so that I could say, hey, here's what we behind this and, in my strong opinion, there is. I would so encourage for a school or a graduate program to pick this up and to really look into it and look at the different personality types that I identified and you know the score and everything and also how men relate to women and um and vice versa, of course, right, um and yeah, and just delve, delve a bit deeper.
Johnna:No, I love that and I love it Like, have you thought about, like I know, in 2020, it was still kind of the era of dating apps and social media, but it was also COVID. So there was a lot of relationships breaking up because there was a lot more people at home stuck with each other realizing like oh, maybe we don't like each other, because when you go about your day to day norm, like like passing and by like sure, you can get away with like for years just being like hi, bye, see you later, kids. And then cause I'm single and I talk to a lot of my friends that are married and they'll kind of talk to me about their relationship status and I'm not by any means a relationship coach, theorist, anything but like just listening to them. I'm like are you happy? I'm like, are you happy? Because it doesn't sound like you are. It sounds like you're just the dating apps, the hookup culture it may be different, or would it come out the same.
Zoey:I believe it would come out the same. Here's why the 80 surveys that we got that was during COVID, but then the following 200, 300 surveys that we got, that was in 2024. And both samples revealed the same thing that the one group of people who are currently together were admiring their partner. But I do very briefly want to touch on what you said about you. Look unhappy, right, girl, to your point, right. Like no one wants to feel like they're leaving something that's predictable maybe unfulfilling, but at least it's predictable. Right, the double you know type thing, right, and then go back into the world, right. Here's the thing, though this is also an excellent tool to realize whether you're being anchored and whether you're selling yourself short. So, because this tool not only will evaluate your self-score, it'll evaluate the partner's score.
Zoey:If you're afraid that you're just being a little moody, that you're just being a little harsh at the time, that you're not seeing things clearly and you should stay in your marriage or stay in your relationship or whatever, I totally hear that right, Because you know like your mind will play tricks on you and say hold on, what if I can't make it work by myself. What if this? Right, if you're doing this survey over and over again and let's say a span of like six months, and you have a strong self-score, because that is the telling, the tell of whether you are healthy and whether you're approaching things in a healthy way and with a healthy mind. So if you have a strong self-score but your partner is consistently scoring low and you are communicating it and partner is not doing anything about it, and you are literally anchored and you're feeling like you're the only one making an effort to make it work, there has to come a time where your self-worth should be stronger than what you think society needs from you. And I want to say one more thing.
Zoey:We identified the average self-score of people who were currently together to be a 76%. There was one group above them for a self-score at 78%. This group did the breaking up. So what that means is that the survey taker, they decided I don't want to be with this person anymore and they had a stronger self-score than the group of people who are currently together. Okay, here's what I'm trying to say here Not all is lost. If you are truly in your heart, feeling like you are unfulfilled, don't worry, don't worry, don't get anchored down. The group that did the breaking up showed a stronger self worth and higher self score. That means that they are more fulfilled within themselves and they are willing to wait until someone will match them. That's what this seems to say, right? So, yeah, sorry, I said it would be brief, but turned out not to be no, that's fine.
Johnna:I love the way you explain that, because it kind of goes along a lot with what me and Meenu have talked about in past podcasts. But you're kind of breaking it down to where it kind of makes more sense analytically, which is how my brain kind of works, sometimes, like I'm not, I don't operate in the opposite side Well, both, I guess. But if someone has a low self-worth and let's say, or they're dating an avoidant, how does that change? Then the score, like obviously they're going to score against each other, and then it's not, they're not going to be a match. But could that change later? You know how they say wrong person or wrong time, right person. Like, let's say, the avoidant goes and does work on himself and he stops running and then you go and work on yourself and you get your self-esteem up. Could then the match become perfect, or is it still no?
Zoey:Yeah, it's possible. Here's my opinion with avoidance. I think sometimes we mislabel the situation. So an avoidant is someone who feels something but then still feels like they need to take a step back for self-protection. But sometimes it's because I'm going to be straight Sometimes they're just scoring you less and sometimes they just don't feel like they should put in the effort because they're not fulfilled. So that's where you see the hot and cold. That's not to dismiss that.
Zoey:Avoidant personality type is a thing, or it is an attachment style. That's not to dismiss that. But you can see someone who's secure still looking like an attachment style. That's not to dismiss that. But you can see someone who's secure still looking like an avoidant. And even worse is when you label them as a narcissist, right? I think that that word has been thrown out a little too much because the empathy is not there and blah, blah, blah, right. I think what's actually happening is it's a score mismatch. So when there's a score mismatch, this person will naturally not have empathy. Naturally they'll think I kind of don't need this person, right? That?
Johnna:makes sense, that makes total sense. I said earlier when I dated people, they'll do something. That's kind of annoying and you're just like, oh, like gross. And then the person will do the exact same thing and you're like, how cute, how cute.
Zoey:Yeah, exactly. So I do believe that, if okay, the person truly is an avoidant, right? So what that means is they have feelings and then, for the sake of self-preservation, they pull back right, that's got to be a them thing, like no one can fix that, no matter how much you work on your score. If something within them activates right and avoidant, like attachment style, when they get feelings, that that's a them problem, that's not a you problem, right, and the whole point is to connect with someone who has a secure attachment style. But again, going back to, I would just be very mindful to label someone an avoidant, because sometimes it's literally just like they think they can do better. It's so tough to hear that, but it's just like we need to be real.
Johnna:Oh, no for sure, and I think it's hard anyways to figure out an avoidant pattern because, like you said, avoidants truly do feel something and they step, step back and then they come back. But it also looks like the person who actually is a manipulative behavior, where they come in and out and they're hot and cold but they don't really respect you. And so that's where in in my I've been in both relationships and it's kind of like, how do you discern the two? Because it's almost hard to tell if you're being manipulated or if they truly do care. You know, like how do you discern the two?
Zoey:I know right, it's very okay. I mean, not that I'm encouraging this, but you can always try to identify how you score in their eyes. Okay, I'm not encouraging it. First and foremost, work on your self-score. But if you're truly wondering hey, am I just getting like screwed here, or is this person screwy?
Zoey:right Like it's such a bad word, I'm so sorry. No, I love it. Or are they a little you know like? Do they have like a certain attachment style? Okay, you can add, beyond knowing them as a person, you can ask them like how do you define sophisticated, For example? Right, Essentially, you want to identify what their top values are.
Zoey:How are they spending their day-to-day? Are they at work all the time? Are they with family all the time? Do they take good care of their money, their image, their fashion, their purpose, their whatever? Right, you should be able to identify top five or even top 10 values.
Zoey:Okay, God, I hate that I'm even saying this, but if you want to know, if you want to know, ask yourself how you think that they're scoring you for each one. Okay, Even better, you could straight up do the survey with them. I did it with my husband when we were six months in and then again when we were one year in. Okay, so if you're feeling open enough and vulnerable enough to do the survey with them, do it. But if you don't feel that, then try to identify their top 10 and score yourself against each one. Now ask yourself how do you think they're scoring themselves against each one, Because it's not just a partner score, it's also the self-score, right.
Zoey:So if, for example, they're killing it at work, they have a really strong social group, they're loving life and whatever right, this is likely someone who has a strong self-score. This is probably someone who respects themselves a lot, right? Or maybe other, whatever other types of values, right, or maybe other whatever other types of values, right. So ask yourself, what is their self score? Ask yourself, how are they scoring me? That should give you an indication on whether they're being hot and cold because they can do better, they think they can do better, or that they're just an avoidant that they're just an avoidant.
Johnna:Okay, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Because it's still so hard to do that? Because I'm thinking of a person in particular that I'm like if I was trying to do his self-score in my mind. I feel like he has everything going on because I respect and admire him, but then I also think that he doesn't have that same respect and admiration for himself. So I don't know if he would give himself the same score that I would give him, but then I also think that he doesn't have that same respect and admiration for himself. So I don't know if he would give himself the same score that I would give him.
Zoey:Yeah, and you're probably right, it's very difficult to determine, right? I will say, if, in my, from what I've seen, the ones who are in a hot, hot back and forth relationship are the ones who score high for traits, ie attraction low for values, and that's what's causing this back and forth, it's essentially the person is magnetized like, oh my God, you're so hot, you're so sexy. I love our conversations and I feel the chemistry and everything. But then, once things get real, and then you're evaluating your day-to-day, you're evaluating how you fit within their life, right? Or maybe they're so independent right now and they went through a bad breakup and they just really crave their independence. That could be a value of theirs too, for example, right? I think that that's what might be happening, might be, in the on and off relationships.
Johnna:That makes sense. Now, you just mentioned you were married, so how long have you been married? Two years, two years, so you had been doing this data before.
Zoey:Do you think it helped you or shaped the way you approach love? Oh girl, I used this survey to get over our relationship. Right before Kevin, I was heartbroken and I'm like, okay, let me apply my own theory. This was back in 2021. And I did, and I realized that I had given him a score way up here.
Zoey:So I was A really hard on myself for my own self-score. B. I'm like why the fuck am I giving him such a high score for dependability? This guy sucks. So I put things into perspective. I'm like why the fuck am I giving him such a high score for dependability? This guy sucks. So I put things into perspective. I'm like, no, is that we? We are not doing this. So eventually, as I like, rewrote the scores and I journaled it right Week after week, after I think it was month two, the scores rebalanced. So, of course, this is like a process, right, like you're still heartbroken, you're still like what just happened, right, this is like a process, right, like you're still heartbroken, You're still like what just happened, right. So it's not like instant, but it gives you such a solid like tool for self-awareness to pull yourself out of thinking that you need someone or thinking that you know like you'll never find anyone better. God no, and sold. I'm buying the book tomorrow.
Zoey:Wow, you're so sweet, yeah, but here's the're.
Johnna:So sweet, yeah, but here's the beauty of it.
Zoey:So here's the beauty of it. Okay, as I'm getting over that that crap, um, I meet someone at the dog park, really, yeah. So our dogs met first and kevin started chatting with me and I'm chatting back not a big deal, right? Right, it's probably actually. No, the first time was probably an hour chat. And then the second day we found each other at the same time.
Zoey:Right, his story is that I was stalking him, but the truth is he was looking for me. Okay, that's the truth, anyway. So here's the thing Like he was not my type, so I did the formula. The formula showed a match. So I'm like, okay, hold on, so we just wait. Just wait, even if he's not your type, even if you're not laughing and you're not mesmerized, and whatever, just wait. Right, because I knew I had a certain pattern and I was trying to kill that pattern. So I think, after like a month or two months, like we started laughing together, cracking up together I got to see his deeper layers that were not super obvious the first month, right, because people tend to be reserved. But no, the fact that I A did the calculation, because the calculation was a match, I told myself hold on, let's see, and then the chemistry built. So, yeah, like, and then, of course, the rest is history.
Zoey:Right, we got engaged, got married, and now, two years in, I do also want to say scores fluctuate. So when we were dating for six months, I asked him to do the formula with me and he scored 4% higher than me or 5% higher than me, right, which was great, because he loved hearing that. I guess he didn't realize. I admired him and also it was kind of cool to see where his insecurities were, where my insecurities were. It just really opened our understanding.
Zoey:So, fast forward one year into our relationship and we're not getting along, right, we are completely misaligned. We are speaking different languages. I was unhappy, he was unhappy, and it's honestly very common in marriages and I can see why marriages are so hard. Right, it's basically you've got two people, their own upbringing, their own mindsets, their own cultures, right, and yeah, the values are matched, the traits are matched, but eventually you're going to start to see those deeper layers too of how people handle stress, how they communicate when they're really pissed off, right, and eventually you might start to see certain clashes. And it's so hard to reset when you live together because you're not really giving each other space to miss each other, right? So, anyways, we got to a point where it became difficult.
Zoey:So I sat him down. I'm like we're doing the formula together, and here's what happened. So, um, I was scoring less in his eyes for communication and manners. He was scoring less in my eyes for dependability and reliability. So I that one thing that just completely drew me to him was that he was my rock. He was a rock, but over time he stopped being that rock, right, for various reasons, whether it's not being self-aware, or because my communication style was not great and I kind of had lost my softness, right, and my admiration for him.
Zoey:All to say, earlier, when I said that two people are projecting their stuff, that's what happened. He started scoring less in my eyes, I started scoring less in his eyes, and we're both projecting that lack of fulfillment into the relationship. And now we're just jerks, and now neither of us are putting our best foot forward. We're both annoyed, right, and yeah, we're just like God, like you know. So, with that said, the formula put us back into a place of alignment, because that's where we realize, hey, like we're slipping. We're married, we don't want to leave each other. We need to work on it Right, and that's where I knew exactly what I needed to work on, so that he could project that back for me and be my rock again.
Johnna:No, I love that because it's almost like you can use the tools in so many different ways, like to find your match, but then to also kind of identify what you're lacking in the relationship, because I've always said what you just said, which is crazy, because I haven't ever found anyone that kind of like agrees with me when I'm like, when and I understand like marriage. Everyone, I think, agrees that marriage is not easy, a relationship in itself. You don't even have to be married. It's not easy because you are bringing two different personalities together and trying to combine them for this long haul. And then you know there's theories out there and I don't know how far you got into your theories or what like obviously you're married and you believe in marriage, but like there are people that you know, I podcast and talk with, people that are like well, humans aren't meant to be monogamous and they're not meant to be with these people this long.
Johnna:And the reason why, you know, people were together so long ago, for so long, is because A women didn't have the right to divorce their husband until the 50s B because people died when they were like 30 years old. So they were together like 10 years and then they died. So now we're living until we're like 100, 110 years old. So it's like, were humans even meant to do that? But I mean, I do believe that there is a person out there, but it takes work and I think the problem, like we mentioned, in this culture that we have today is I personally feel there's I have no research on this that it's just easy to leave and find someone else because of the access the social media, the dating apps. There's just so much access that you don't have to put in the work and the effort because it's hard.
Zoey:Yeah, yeah, and you're on point. So exactly. A our lifespans are so much longer. B now women have a lot more freedom to say I'm not putting up with this, right, and we have higher standards, and now we are protected, like the laws do protect women, especially if we're having children, right. So I agree with you it's a very strange time for marriage. In fact, I think that came out that by 2030, 45% of women aged between 25 and 45 would not have children or that they would be childless, right, whether they choose to, eventually.
Zoey:So, if you think about it, marriage is great if you're having a child, if you want a mortgage, dual income, but if you don't want any of those right, or if you can, you know, if you feel like you can handle lifestyle by yourself financially, like like, what's the point?
Zoey:No, yeah, I can see why people are choosing to A not have children and not get into a mortgage together and just be solo and still engage in long-term relationships but not have all these like things where it's like so difficult to leave. And I think, especially for women, though, like, especially for women, you know what I mean. I empathize clearly for both genders, but I'm a woman, right, so when a woman gives, not gives up, her career, but, you know, slows down her career for the sake of the family. And then you know her body, she's sacrificing her body to have a child, right, it's kind of an unfair advantage that men have. Yeah, and the law sees that, which I'm really glad to see Right. But yeah, all to say like, yeah, I, I, I understand why women are taking a step back from these like social constructs. It's because it's not to our advantage, because it's not to our advantage.
Johnna:Well and like, just as the laws and I think that we all quickly forget the laws are they're just recently changed, because I'm reading a book called the Small but Mighty Now, and it talks about people in history that didn't make the history books. But there was this lady in Idaho that lost everything because her husband died, and this was like 1910. So if we're, I mean that was just not, I mean not too long ago. So she lost everything, her husband died and then everything they owned together because they were married, belonged to the state, and the state kicked her out of her house and she was homeless oh my god, like they they even, I want to say they even took her children and like they um, she only had one that was like 18 that went with her and she had to move and start all over.
Johnna:So we forget how quickly, like or how not long ago, things weren't that different, especially like when it came to divorce. Like because in this book it talks about divorce, like that was not a thing, like only men could request a divorce, yeah, and so, like I think we quickly forget that. But like I mean, you sent me this little meme on TikTok and it was funny. It was like this lady walking around with the AI companion and basically she was telling him like OK, you're getting on my nerves, can you please use Jason Samoa voice for the next five years or something. And like he basically was whoever she wanted to be.
Johnna:And so I completely understand that Like and I'll be honest, like I don't even try to date because it's almost like the past three or four people that I've dated it's been the same thing and I don't know it could be something I'm doing and I mean I'm happy to use this as an example for the podcast, but it seems almost like that I'm picking the same men who seem to really really like me in the beginning, and maybe it is love bombing and I'm not recognizing it. Maybe it is love bombing and I'm not recognizing it. Or maybe it's that I've wanted that so bad that I'm accepting less than and thinking it's more than what it is. But then it's like we get two or three months in I finally let my guard down and it's like, oh, no, no, no, I didn't want a relationship. What made you think that?
Johnna:And you're like I don't know the calls the text every day You're hanging out with me once, twice, three times a week, taking me on dates, going in public, I don't know. It seemed like you wanted a relationship. So it's like, almost at this point, it's like I'm not even willing to put myself out there to do it again, because maybe I am doing something, because I know, min, you mentioned mirror neurons and you had mentioned that you've heard about the mirror neurons too, where we're reflecting back on ourselves. So maybe I'm the emotionally avoidant one and I don't realize it. I don't know.
Zoey:I don't believe that you're emotionally avoidant. I believe that people are very irresponsible and I think that, from what it sounds, there's an underlying personality trait there, that like to me trait there. To me, narcissism is a very strong word, I don't like using that word Selfish, let's say selfish. To me, what they've done is extremely selfish. And then to twist the narrative where it's like well, why would you assume that blah, blah, blah. It's like, why do you think You've been giving me all the signs, god forbid, three months in, I'm doing a little check-in about whether you want a commitment, god forbid, right. And then they twist the narrative like you're crazy, this is the pool, this is our pool. Okay, you did something wrong, but what I will say is that there's probably something underlying there that your subconscious is picking up on, that is being attracted. So whether that's, I don't know, love bombers are interesting.
Zoey:I would maybe just write out all the similar patterns that you identified in these last three or four. In the beginning, right, were they extremely charismatic, charming, were they like showing you off? And blah, blah, blah, right, um, were they trying to impress you or I don't know you, you pick all those traits and maybe you can, you might be identify and be able to identify a personality type where it's a charmer or someone who's wearing a mask, because these masks, dude people are getting really smart. They are. They are very manipulative. They know what to say, they know what to do, they know how to seem genuine and maybe to them they are genuine, but then three months in once shit gets real and then they try to turn it back on you like you're crazy fuck that right, because I had one guy like a wee got in a fight and then they try to turn it back on you like you're crazy.
Johnna:Fuck that right. Because I had one guy like a. We got in a fight and then, of course, like continued dating off and on for like two years and he, he was like like I think maybe a year into it I was like so you know what, what are we doing? And it was more like oh, I've seen some things in you that you know, I just didn't think were a good relationship match and I'm like you couldn't have told me that eight months ago. You couldn't have told me that. And what do you mean? You've seen some things. That's and that's where I say that people are just so quick to give up because it's like sure, I'm not saying I'm perfect by any means. No one is. We all have our flaws that we have to work on, but it's called communication. And communicate that to me and say hey, when you did this, it kind of made me feel this way, like you're either going to have to work on it or I'm bouncing.
Zoey:Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think that people are projecting their own wounds. So maybe something happened when he was in high school and, you know, a girl rejected him and then he saw that same trait in you eight months ago and now something in his brain is like danger, danger, danger, right, and. And communication is actually very difficult because we don't live in a community, or in a world, rather, where communication is encouraged. You sound like you're weak If you communicate. God forbid, god forbid.
Zoey:I asked three months in where we're at Right, it's like we have to play this dance, right? And then no one knows what the hell is happening. You're kind of feeling the vibes and everyone's just assuming right, the first few months is happening, but let me just go with it, right? All to say, I don't and I'm genuinely saying this, okay, I don't believe you've done anything wrong. I think that you led with heart no-transcript, though to maybe identify whether there's something underlying there that your subconscious is picking up on. Yeah, um and yeah, just ask yourself. And, by the way, like when I met kevin, he wasn't my type, but to me that was reassuring that maybe he's a good person.
Johnna:Well, I was going to ask you about that Because there are a lot of relationship therapists that say like stop dating, quote, unquote your type and try something outside of your type, and most people that I talked to that have like loving wonderful relationships. They do say that. They say, well, he wasn't my type, but that chemistry grew. So it was like that slow burn versus that quick, hot and heavy. Do you find that? Did you find that in your? I don't know if that was part of your research, but did you find that in your research, like chemistry versus compatibility and the slow burn?
Zoey:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, but not in the sense that you're saying it. So I identified a personality type. Okay, so the personality type is the practical versus the emotional. The practical these are the people who are more looking at values when they make decisions in relationships right, and whether they should move forward and when they should connect. And then there's the emotional type. These ones look more at traits, right and attraction, and that will drive their decisions on whether they should connect.
Zoey:So between these two, we've got healthy and extreme. So we have healthy, practical people who are values leaning, and extreme practical people who are all the way just on values and don't care for chemistry. Then you've got the healthy emotional and the majority of people, based on our analytics, actually fall in the healthy emotional type and these are also this is also the biggest group of the people who are currently together, ok, healthy emotional. Then there's the extreme emotional. I used to be an extreme emotional and I identified this when I did like my own questionnaire, to be honest, and I'm like, okay, well, you know. So I think, because I was falling in the extreme emotional bucket. That's why, like, the love bomb felt so good and it felt so aligned. It's because I was extremely traits focused and not values focused. I'm telling you, if I had paid attention to values back in 2001 when that heartbreak happened with the other guy, I wouldn't even have entered that relationship in the first place, because the values were clearly not a match.
Zoey:There was no way there was going to be lifestyle compatibility with this person. But I didn't care. I didn't care and also like for the values, I also gave him top scores where he didn't deserve them right. So there was an extreme lack of self-awareness in that and it all played out. And then I saw it within the calculations so as an extreme emotional. Yeah, that's where I identified there was a serious problem here. With Kevin I became a healthy, practical, so I stopped putting so much emphasis on the emotions and I'm like hold on, the values make sense. The trait score is not totally there yet, but the values are a match. Let me just wait. And as I waited, his trait score started bumping up because I started laughing with him. That laughter grew my attraction to him, physically right, and all of that. And then I saw his nature, his manly nature, his presence. So all these little things took time to come out. They were an instant right.
Zoey:So I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, yeah.
Johnna:No, it does. How would you say like so, like let's say I do meet someone tomorrow for heaven bid and I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this trait score, but you don't really know their values yet. How do you do it in that early dating stage If you don't really know? Know them yet because, like you said, some people are reserved. Like how did you do that with Kevin when you said he was a little reserved at first?
Zoey:How do you predict their values? Yeah, I mean, I didn't predict his values, but I checked to see how he fit within my values. So within my values it was a good match within the traits. Remember how I said he's not? Yeah, it's because he didn't totally fit. But the longer I stayed, the more I became open-minded. So I'll give you an example. Okay, I used to date men of my culture. I used to date only older. I was not attracted to younger. Kevin is both white, caucasian and younger by two years. Okay, but everything else was fine. So I told myself so we just chill, you never, you just chill, right. These are not like destructive traits, it's just maybe not what you're used to, but you know so. And that's what happened. Like, eventually, I realized age is no longer a trait preference of mine because Kevin was mature, yeah, of mine because Kevin was mature, yeah, right. So I switched it to that, also cultural. Like I grew up in Canada, I live in the U S.
Zoey:look, I don't need to like be so narrow but yeah, but eventually I start to open my mind and I start to realize those tree preferences that I had, um, they weren't necessarily conducive to healthy relationships. So I opened my mind, all to say if you meet someone and value that's why I called myself a healthy, practical, it's because I allowed myself to review the values before the traits right, and the traits eventually grew. So I think now I'm probably somewhere like right in the middle, but also like that's what allowed me to be in an emotionally safe relationship. It's because those extreme emotions weren't activated, which is a good thing. That means stability, that means centeredness, that means smart decisions, not emotional decisions. That means that I can come into work completely focus on work and not have my mind loop about a relationship or whether someone is texting me back or not. Right. So to me that worked. But also we're seeing it in the analytics that it generally does work right. So again, the group with the longstanding relationships were the healthy emotionals. Right, extreme emotionals right, extreme emotionals. Forget about that. Yeah, like they weren't able to hold on to a relationship in the same way.
Zoey:So for you sorry to back up a bit I would say if you meet someone and you find that you can inherently tell that they're a good person and they have those elements of a rock and they're not desperately trying to convince you how amazing they are. They're a good person and they have those elements of a rock and they're not desperately trying to convince you how amazing they are. They're not desperately trying to make you love them and desire them and whatever, right, and there may not be necessarily a spark, but there's like something there, right, and they're a good score. My, my suggestion is to just wait. So if he is inviting you on dates, right, I'm not saying go on like extreme dates, right, but like even a walk, even like a hike, even like a coffee, right, and just see if something grows from there.
Zoey:For me it was probably about a month in where I'm like okay, like now, like that desire is there, right. And it was between one and two months where, like, the cracking up really started like laughter, a lot of laughter, and trust and all of that, right. So that's what worked for me.
Johnna:Well, and that makes sense, because I did date a guy recently that like it was like that when I first like obviously I was attracted to him somewhat or I wouldn't have went, but like it was a very slow, like I don't know if we have much in common, like we don't. You don't really talk a lot Like. I like someone who really talks a lot, but I think that's just from patterns, that, like the guys that I've dated before, it's like talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and then they ghost, and so he wasn't doing that and like. But still like when we hung out in person there was a lot of attention, there was a lot of laughing and like it did it. I was like, okay, maybe this is what a secure man feels like, because it's different than what I've been before. But unfortunately he just turned out he didn't want a relationship either. So I don't know, he just turned out he didn't want a relationship either. So I don't know.
Zoey:Yeah, and you know that happens, that happens, it's okay. I'm telling you, it's A, the pool. B, the access to all the people out there, right, all the options. And now I believe that we are so hell-bent on our independence and not wanting to compromise, right, right, and maybe an exercise would be helpful. So when I went through my thing back in 2021, I recognized that my self-score was low and I eventually recognized that I unknowingly was projecting that into the relationship, whether it was my body language or being a self-sacrificer or being infatuated and all of that.
Zoey:So I would suggest looking at your self-score. The average self-score for women is 76%. Also, the ones who tend to be in a longstanding relationship is 76%. Evaluate yourself. If you're below, let's say, 73 or 70%, you may unknowingly be projecting infatuation into the relationship or self-sacrificing, and that does not work in relationships. Right, because they want to see an equal, they want to see someone slightly above them, right? And if you self-sacrifice, if you're infatuated, you're subconsciously sending the signal, or energetically sending the signal of you are better than me, and that should not happen. You have to feel strong, solid in who you are and in your self-worth. So evaluate that. If you feel like the self-score is low. Work on that. A ask yourself if you're being hard on yourself. B if there are things that you feel you could be better at.
Zoey:There are ways to enhance your self-score, like. One of the examples I give in the book actually is education. Education does not mean a bachelor's or a master's, or you can get educated through a podcast, through reading right? So there are so many different ways. So there are so many different ways. So there are tools that you can apply to bump your self-score. Same thing with health consciousness. Health consciousness doesn't have to mean going to the gym five days a week. It can mean breathing exercises, it could be eating well, taking your daily vitamins right? There are so many things you can do to enhance your self-score based on your values. Right?
Johnna:so that that's what I would suggest. Oh, I think that's like definitely self-sacrifice for sure, like I, I would like, if I wanted to do, like do something, and for sure would be like, okay, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine okay, yeah until I got mad, and then, when I would get mad, I I would speak my truth, and then it was almost like they were very attracted to that. Yeah, yeah, I'd be like what are you? I'd be like what are you even talking about?
Zoey:Yeah, yeah, exactly so I. Inherently, we are attracted to strength because inherently, our drive is to create a strong offspring. So you, to admire the person, you need to see their strength right. I completely get the self-sacrificing, by the way, okay, like I'm Afghan baby of the family, we are literally wired to do this right. Plus, with the dating pool and me being an extreme emotional and all of that, yeah, I fell into those patterns very easily. Here's the thing the analytics were showing that is not likely conducive to a healthy relationship or to a longstanding relationship. So, work on your self score and once you do, trust me, inherently you'll be able to go into these conversations and body language. Just, you know a little bit. You know like propped up, right, yeah, you know a little bit. You know like propped up, right, yeah, and it'll show in that, it'll show in your speech, in your voice, in your charm and all of that. And that's what's magnetic. I love that.
Johnna:Yeah, I have a few more questions for you and then, if you're up for it, I want to do a rapid fire round. It's something I've started doing on the podcast and like to give you like quick off the top of your head, but I do have a few more questions for you. Okay, if love is a formula, what's the biggest variable? People ignore.
Zoey:Self score. You can't love someone unless you love yourself. The analytics showed that the groups with the lowest self score were either on and off, mutual breakup or they were broken up with the group after that, 76% were currently in a relationship. The group after that 78%, they did the breaking up. All to say that cliche can't love someone unless you love yourself is true. You need a strong self-score to approach relationships in a healthy way.
Johnna:That makes sense. I mean, I've heard that and you hear it and it seems like such simple advice. But sometimes it's just harder to do that because and that's why I have me and you on the podcast a lot because it's like we try to always do this ourselves and sometimes we do need to reach out to experts in the field to give us not just advice but tools, like you're giving people tools on how to like figure out your self-score and figure out their self-score. So sometimes I think we again want to be strong and try not to ask for help, but I think that asking for help is strength. So I agree with everything you just said. What is a love myth that drives you crazy and needs to go? Okay?
Zoey:crazy and needs to go. Give me some examples of myths and I'll tell you if I agree or disagree.
Johnna:Let's see, I'd have to think of some myself. That's a love myth. A love myth, I guess would be like, like you're destined to be together, Twin flames, soulmates.
Zoey:Oh, that's a great one Twin flames, soulmates, runner chaser. So I'm actually a very spiritual person. In fact, I use this formula to manifest right, because when you're specific with the universe, it's more likely to respond. Okay, here's the thing.
Zoey:The runner chaser, we have to be so careful with that. If someone is running, don't romanticize that it's not your angels tapping on you on your shoulder and say, yeah, go for it. You know. So if it's causing self-harm, be very careful that the things you find online that are validating the runner chaser, I just don't believe in that. In fact, the analytics don't support that. You know what I mean.
Zoey:I think that it's just something that we've created, in my opinion, to validate our feelings. But your feelings are actually I'm so sorry, I'm going to say it because I was there Okay, so that's why I feel comfortable your feelings are emotional dysregulation. You are falling in the extreme emotional bucket and now you have to understand these feelings. And there are things online that say, hey, runner chaser, and you're like, oh my God, this totally resonates, right? Also, the avoidant, it's like, oh my God, this totally resonates. It's just something within them. Their feelings are so strong and that's why, no, sometimes that like, you're just not a good fit for them, right, and believe me, rejection, as they say, is God's protection. You can do better if they're going to project that crap onto you and they're not going to treat you well. So you know, like, go find someone who, who wants to be your rock.
Johnna:Right, I agree, I used to also be the runner chaser and I'm trying so hard to get out of that mindset because I think it was normalized in my childhood to do that like chase after my parents for love, and so that chaos to me subconsciously is love, and so I have to try to rewire that out of my brain to be like no, actually it's not you should. You should feel safe. You shouldn't feel like you can't say what you need to say or that you're going to scare someone off or all that. So I 1000% what you just said.
Zoey:Yeah, I mean that's such strong self-awareness, right, because we learn how to love through our parents and if we're constantly seeking, needing like we need to chase validation, needing to chase love, essentially that becomes normalized in our adulthood, right? And so how do I put it? It's very difficult to rewire. Self-awareness is obviously the first step right. Rewiring is a completely different ballgame, and I'll give you an example. Can you control what you find funny?
Johnna:No.
Zoey:Exactly so. To that same extent, because it's so in you, to that same extent can you necessarily control who you find attractive, what you find attractive.
Johnna:No.
Zoey:But what you can do is stop yourself from engaging in something that could be a lot worse and could spiral right. So, like wiring, yeah, that's a different ballgame. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible. Healing, meditation, you know, connection with nature, journaling, friendships, you know, feeling strong self-worth. That will, I think, naturally cause you to stop chasing. But it all comes down to self-worth and self-validation and self-trust.
Johnna:But, like I said, sometimes it's just not easy and I'm glad you said that, because me and a friend had a disagreement not too long ago because she was like, well, because I, you know, I am aware of the trauma response now through working with life coaching and energy healing and stuff like that. But I just became aware of it like a year and a half ago and I'm almost 38. So I tried to explain to her. I was like I'm not using my trauma as an excuse, I'm just saying it. Yes, I'm aware of it, but it's not as easy as just okay, the lights on, let's stop, because it's still so deep within me to do that that I'm like I can, I, it's almost like I can recognize it after I've done it. And then I'm like, no, I did it again.
Zoey:I totally get it. I totally, totally get it, and that's the thing like being able to articulate the issue.
Zoey:that's just the first step next is like, okay, doing something about it and sometimes, like I said, it's just so in us, right? And, by the way, like us as humans, we're essentially a bucket of genes and personality types from our parents and their parents and grandparents and great grand, like, like. Think about the generational dump here when it comes to our DNA, our trauma. All I'm trying to say is it's not necessarily easy. We are very bound by our brains. Our brains were developed as children and they were passed on to us through generation upon generation upon generation.
Zoey:So self-awareness is one thing. To be able to rewire is a completely different ball game. And unless there's daily, daily like work towards this and, by the way, I get it, so who's got daily time all the time, right? And and we're also talking about try to rewire what you find funny, right, try to rewire that Right, and tell your friend that too. Just say, can you help what you find funny? If she says, no, it's like, same thing, right, same thing. Sometimes you can't help what you find attractive, but again it goes back to you can put a stop to it, right?
Johnna:And get out of control what?
Zoey:is something your younger self believed about love that you now know isn't true. God, the romance of like your emotions and you know the like disney I was gonna say disney, yeah, no, that's such bullshit, my God.
Johnna:Yeah, we're not going to be swept off our feet. It's not.
Zoey:That's not what we're not, but it's funny because my wiring is still like that, but I just feel better now.
Johnna:Are you ready for love logic or leave it game? So most overrated relationship advice Follow your heart. Red flag you ignored, but never will again. Love bombing Text back fast or wait it out.
Zoey:Oh man, if you want to play it right, you got to wait it out. I don't even hate that. I have to say this If you want to play it right, you got to wait it out. I, I don't even hate that, I had that. I have to say this if you want to play it right, but if you don't want to play, then fucking do what feels good to you right, because if you start playing, they're going to start playing too. But right now the game is you wait it out which is I hate games.
Zoey:But you gotta do it yeah, um biggest green flag in a partner dependability and being a rock and just like someone who wants to be there for you. Not in a hero sense, because that's also a red flag, um but just like, just in their presence, like you just feel safe around them a trait you used to chase, but no longer care about Age and culture.
Johnna:Most emotionally intelligent sign of love Safety. Love at first sight. Is that real or romanticized? Romanticized Deal breaker? No matter how hot they are, lack of kindness. Do soulmates exist, yes, no, or depends they exist?
Zoey:most powerful act of self-respect in dating leaving when, when you're constantly disrespected, you have to leave.
Johnna:Go to breakup recovery anthem.
Zoey:Anthem. There's a song by Ciara called Like a Boy.
Johnna:Yes.
Zoey:In my 20s when I was cheated on, I had that on repeat. I'm like, yeah, what if I did that to you? Huh, what if I acted like a boy? What if?
Johnna:I I love the the video she had too. It was awesome.
Zoey:Oh yeah, no, she killed it um therapy or tequila dude, I love a good time, but you got to be careful with alcohol. That shit is going to get to your nervous system the older you get, the harder it is to metabolize that your days at work or shit. So it really I have a good time. Gotta be careful with that. So maybe once a week tequila. The rest I would say therapy um your biggest dating ick oh, I have one.
Zoey:I'm a little old school. I'm gonna say it because I'm old school. If it's the first date, I don't care where we go, you decide. If you want to go for a hike, we'll do that. If we'll go to a coffee shop, we'll do that. If we'll go to a coffee shop, we'll do that. If you want dinner, we'll do that. If you let me, I'm always going to pull out my card, regardless. I'm going to pull out my card If you let me pay on the first date. Oh, I just can't.
Johnna:And it's so awkward too, like I like that's almost the one thing that I hate about first dates is like well, I thought you were going to say don't kiss me, because that's mine Like do not try to kiss me on the first day. Oh really Just don't like. It's just awkward. I don't know you, it's just, it's just awkward.
Zoey:Oh, that's fair, that's totally fair.
Johnna:What's one thing data will never be able to measure.
Zoey:About love the spiritual aspect, like, I do believe in soulmates, not necessarily that you're meant to be with them, but I do believe that some people are here on this earth to teach you a lesson, um, and the lesson, in my opinion, is usually based on love, either self-love or love for other people. Um, so, yeah, I, I, I do. I do believe in soulmates.
Johnna:Okay, and then the last one I have is what's the most romantic gesture? That's actually simple.
Zoey:You know, for me again, it goes back to my old school. I really am attracted to gentlemen behaviors Like. I'll give you an example Okay, I'm married, so like whatever. But I did notice this. I was out about a month ago and I was sitting outside with my girlfriend and it was the end of the night there was a guy sitting at the very end of the table right, and not a big deal, everyone's just socializing. So he asked me a question. I answered and I guess something like he got curious and interested about what I was saying. He asked me the question do you mind if I pull my chair closer?
Zoey:And it's like you don't really understand that like there's to me, there's like so much to that. It's like you're checking to see if I'm feeling safe before you do something right that might make you feel uncomfortable. So, whether it's like opening a door or like checking in or picking up that bill right again, I don't want to seem like I'm, you know all about that, but you know there's just it's the safety aspect. Um, I think that it's very much underrated that like being a gentleman will make you so good looking and hot and, like you know, like safe, right, especially if you're dealing with. I mean, obviously it depends on the woman right. The woman has to value that right. But if she doesn't, she doesn't. That's fine. But yeah, that to me is the most underrated one.
Johnna:Oh, I agree, and I mean, like you said, it's little things that doesn't even cost you anything, like walking on the side of the road when you're on the sidewalk. Just little things that we don't even think about on a day to day, especially now in the era that we're in, but just little bitty things, like because it's almost. It almost feels strange when it does happen. But, like you said, it kind of caught you off guard because it almost feels like something inside of me, that that lit something up inside of me and you're just kind of like, but why? Because it's so rare.
Zoey:Yeah, exactly, because it's so rare. Yeah, exactly so. It's funny because, even with Kevin, one of the first things I noticed when we went on our first date we were walking across the street and he repositioned himself to like a block traffic. Right, I hadn't seen that before, but I clocked it right away and I'm like that is a very good trait that makes a woman feel protected and safe and and, to be honest with you, that's why I told myself, zoe, just wait, like those are very good qualities. You know what I mean? Yeah, so, yeah, so. That's what I would say, and I feel like this this new generation of daters are lacking that. To be honest with you, I think that, yeah, that's a whole other story for a whole other podcast.
Johnna:No, I appreciate you so much for doing this. You are so knowledgeable in everything that you talked about and I feel like literally you're speaking to my soul. I'm sure everyone listening is probably thinking the same. So you guys all go out and buy. Love Can, in fact, be calculated. I'm definitely getting a copy because I've got to do this test.
Zoey:But Zoe tell everybody where they can find you, follow you all the things that you're doing right now. Sure, so you can find me on Instagram. My social media handle is at Zoe Sharif C-H-A-R-I-F. Same thing with TikTok For the book. You can buy it off Barnes and Noble or Amazon. So Amazon, it's on Prime. You'll get it within two days.
Johnna:And, guys, I'm going to have that all linked in the bio so you can just go to the bio, click a link and go find it. So thank you so much again for doing this.
Zoey:I had so much fun.
Johnna:All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much as I did, but I just wanted to add a caveat. After we officially wrapped the episode, zoe and I kept chatting because, like, obviously, and something came up that I really wanted to share before we go. Earlier in the episode, we were talking about, like, being married or being in long term relationships, and Zoe recommended continuing to redo the scores, whether that be, like, every three months, every six months, especially if, like, there's maybe fighting or arguing or something like that. We talked about how compatibility scores can shift over time and that's why she recommended redoing the scores. So if you are in a relationship or a marriage where things used to feel perfectly aligned, but now the scores are mismatched and either person is putting in the work, that does not mean the relationship is still meant to work. So she wasn't saying like, this is the end, all be all to a quote unquote perfect relationship. She was just saying that this is a tool to put in the toolbox and that circumstances can change. People can evolve or maybe they don't evolve. If the efforts not there on both ends, the match doesn't hold. And just to be clear, if there's any form of abuse in the relationship, whether it be physical, verbal, sexual, any type of abuse. Even if you two are quote unquote scoring high on paper, that is never a reason to stay in a relationship just for a quote unquote perfect score period. That's all I'll say about that. But I just wanted to leave you with that, because numbers only matter in the real life. Effort and safety are there too, and remember, it's just a tool to use in the toolbox. It's not the end all be all. But okay, I don't know about you all, but this episode hit very deep.
Johnna:Talking with Zoe made me realize how much of what we think is just how love works is actually old patterns on repeat Patterns we can break, but only if we're honest enough to name them. I've lived some of the stuff we've talked about today. I've chosen people who couldn't show up, I've confused loyalty with self-sacrifice and I've called it love when really it was just me holding on to potential. So if you're in that space right now, whether it be feeling stuck, frustrated or questioning your worth, just know you're not alone and that you're not crazy. You do deserve real connection, and sometimes the first step toward finding it is breaking your own pattern. But also grabbing Zoe's book Love Can in fact be calculated. If this episode stirred something in you, obviously I want you to share it with someone who needs to hear it and, as always, thank you for babbling with me. Until next time, guys. Bye you.
