Babbles Nonsense
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Babbles Nonsense
Babbling About Rock Bottom .... Is This Your Ticket to the Top? w/ Meenu
#186: The hardest truth to face is that sometimes you can love someone deeply and still be enabling them. In this powerful conversation, Meenu (life coach and host of Transcend Into Wellness podcast) and I explore that fine line where helping crosses into hurting.
We all want to support those we care about, but when does that support become sabotage? When are we actually preventing someone from growing through their struggles? Through personal stories and professional insights, we unpack the psychology behind enabling behaviors—whether with family members struggling with responsibility, friends caught in toxic patterns, or partners dealing with addiction.
The conversation delves into several uncomfortable truths: many enablers are actually helping themselves feel better rather than truly serving the other person; hitting rock bottom is often necessary for genuine change; and sometimes walking away is the most loving action you can take. Meenu shares powerful coaching perspectives on how to set compassionate boundaries without carrying guilt, and how to recognize when you're being manipulated versus when someone genuinely needs support.
"Behavior is a language," Meenu reminds us, highlighting that patterns reveal more than promises ever could. Together, we explore practical ways to support without creating dependency, how to navigate family dynamics when one person wants to enable while another doesn't, and the emotional cost to those who take on the "savior" role.
Whether you're struggling with a loved one who can't seem to break destructive cycles or questioning your own tendency to rescue others, this episode offers both compassion and clarity. Listen, reflect, and consider: are you helping someone grow, or just helping them stay exactly where they are?
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What is up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Babbles Nonsense podcast. And today we are joined by Meenu, who is a life coach and host of the Transcend Into Wellness podcast. And today we are talking about enabling. So when does helping turn into hurting? When does support become sabotage? And how do you know if you're saving someone or just saving them from themselves?
Johnna:Today we are talking about one of the hardest truths to face. You can love someone and still be enabling them. Whether it's addiction, toxic patterns or emotional chaos. Some people don't change until they hit their own kind of rock bottom. So where is that line between compassion and codependency? How do you let go without carrying guilt? And is walking away sometimes the most loving thing you can do? Again, to help me unpack all of this, I'm joined by Min Yu, who is a life coach and the host of the Transcend Into Wellness podcast. She brings the receipts, the insight and the real talk that you didn't even know you needed. But before we dive in, a quick note this conversation is not to substitute therapy, treatment or professional help. All right guys, let's get into it. All right guys, welcome back. Me and Meenu are back together today.
Meenu:And welcome back guys. We're so pumped into Babbel's Nonsense and Transcend into Wellness. I have not been here, Jonna, for three weeks now, so you've inspired me to do another episode.
Johnna:It's been a while. I know I reached out to you not too long ago about this episode. Um, that we're gonna do today and you're like I'm in hibernation mode. I was like you know, I probably need to do one of those. That sounds very nice. That's what I need to do but I wanted to talk.
Johnna:I wanted to talk to you because I couldn't do this alone, because mostly about a topic like where we enable people versus like helping them, because I know and especially in this could be anybody right this can be family, this can be platonic relationships, romantic relationships. I see it more in a family dynamic and that's kind of like where I was thinking about this from like I had been talking to friends and things had been going on in their life and I was like, yeah, I've had that situation in my life too.
Johnna:And I was like this would be a really good podcast topic because I feel like probably a lot of people kind of don't know where that line ends of enabling them to get better and change their ways, versus like do we help?
Meenu:like do we help? Yeah, yeah, that's a really very effective topic. I also think that it applies in so many areas and you're saying that you know family dynamics Absolutely. I've also seen that happen in friendships. I've seen it happen in relationships, like one of my close friends was recently dating somebody and it almost seemed like she had to be his therapist. So you know she has to be like I got to stop, you know helping you and do me, and this is where I draw the line. So it's like having boundaries when you are in these situations. So I've seen it happen in several dynamics and I think it's really important to talk about.
Johnna:Yeah, and I know that, like when I looked up statistics for this, like it pulled up a lot more with, like substance abuse, because that's where we see it the most Like we see a lot like when, like, of course, me working in the ER, like I had families ask me like well, what do I do? Because I don't want to give up on them, because I don't want them to hurt themselves, and things like that. So we see it more, whether it be alcohol, drugs, whatever. But I personally saw it in my family and it wasn't with drug abuse or any substance abuse, it was more so um, a sibling that really didn't have her stuff together and my mom would always like pay her rent or pay her car payment, and then it was like she's never gonna learn to do that if you don't do it. But then, at the the same time, I understand from her perspective, she's like, but that's my child and so where is drawing that line? So that's kind of what I wanted to get into, yeah.
Meenu:And it's so funny. You say that. I just listened to a podcast and I don't know if you know Dr John Deloney is a family therapist. He's written multiple books on anxiety. He's a specialist in terms of relationships and managing family dynamics and stuff, and he said that he read it in a book like literally on the front page, that the greatest gifts parents can give their children are problems. Really, yeah, and you would think it's the other way. You would think, oh my God, I need to coddle, I need to protect, I need to prevent them from having any negative experiences, from getting hurt, but unfortunately that will just tamper with their growth and that will sabotage their self-worth.
Meenu:I mean, it makes sense earth, because they are never yeah, they're never figuring anything out Like. I can give you an example about myself. My dad pretty much spoiled me, you know, when he raised me Like. So I had to learn a lot of hard lessons once I left home, when I was 17 and a half and I lived in a country where I didn't know anyone. I made friends that I've never seen before in my life. I had to navigate through school, study things that I didn't like, live in places that weren't great.
Meenu:I was at rock bottom because I had not seen troubles that much when I was younger than that. So I underwent and experienced the spectrum of the troubles so much all the way back from when I was 17 to 22. And then, of course, later in my 30s, once I got divorced and started restarted my business like that so it and I would never take a single trouble away Like, yeah, I complained, yeah, it was hard, but would I change anything? No, everything taught me so much, it gave me so much grit, it gave me so much strength. I can never get that from reading a book.
Johnna:No, yeah, like I. Similar story. I mean we, we grew up polar opposites, like I felt like my parents were more focused on my sister because she was in and out of trouble a lot, so I got ignored a lot, which we've talked about on other episodes, and so like, for a long time I held all this anger inside of me because I was like you're still my mother, you still should have cared, you still, and like not saying she didn't care because she cared in her own way. But that was not the focus at that time. But, looking back on it, like I'm so proud of how independent I am and I can do things by myself and I'm financially secure and I know how to balance a checkbook and I know how to pay my bills.
Johnna:And like, looking back on it, like me having to do that at such an early age and so young, like I probably wouldn't have done that because me and my sister have talked since then, and she was like I feel like, because mom was always helping me, I didn't learn those things. She was like when did you learn those things? I was like Lindsay, like we lived in the same house, what are you talking about? And she was like, but I don't feel like I got that same education because of the coddling to her, because of her being in trouble and so like now that you say that like yeah, it took me a long time to realize that, like I'm appreciative, but also it still sucks right so no, absolutely, it really, really really sucks.
Meenu:but I've started reframing the suck, like how do I?
Johnna:say it Because I'm a life coach.
Meenu:I have to reframe everything. When I feel sucky, when I feel this, it's like what is it training me to be? What is it teaching me in this moment? It's difficult, clearly, because I've not done this before, but what is it also like stretching? How is it stretching me to be a better person? Right, I mean, how is this going to be beneficial later on? Like, for example, because I've lived in so many countries, you can practically throw me anywhere and I'll survive. Yeah, because I've lived in America, I've lived in Mexico, I've lived in India, I've lived in Singapore. Like, I don't say this lightly. It came with a lot of trial and error, making mistakes, not having friends, periods of loneliness and isolation and then finding community and then, immediately after finding community, moving somewhere else. It came with a lot of lessons. But I'm also here and I'm also at this capacity where I feel like I've learned so much at this age because I've had those hard experiences.
Johnna:Yeah, I agree, I agree. So kind of I want to ask you some questions, since you kind of deal with this when you're coaching clients, so you, you kind of know how to navigate it.
Meenu:So that's why I didn't want to do it by myself.
Johnna:So, how can we define that quote unquote rock bottom in more objective or individualized terms, or like should that matter? Should we? Should we say rock bottom? Should we think of it in those negative terms? Does that make sense?
Meenu:what I'm asking oh, 1000%. And the interesting part about rock bottom is it's very subjective to each person, depending on their experiences. Like my rock bottom may not be your rock bottom. Your rock bottom may not be my rock, I'd be like I'd probably think why is Jonna so upset about this? It won't make sense, it won't click. But each person still feeling that amount of pain where they can't go nowhere, but they really hit that place, I think that itself is enough for it to be classified as rock bottom Right.
Meenu:And I am a person who don't. I don't believe in fluffing everything to positivity. I don't believe in fluffing everything to positivity. I don't believe in changing negative terms to positive terms. It is what it is. It fucking sucks, it's painful, it's rock bottom. Rock bottom is rock bottom, right. Yeah. So even when my clients face the rock bottomness, I will say I want you to say that. I want you to verbally, just say it like loudly, say I have hit rock bottom, because it's almost like going to AA and saying I'm an alcoholic. Yeah, it's to accept where you're at, completely feel the suck of that situation, feel the hurt which will, which is what will actually provoke you to be like I don't really want to be here anymore, right, and I have nowhere to go but up.
Johnna:And that's the client. So what, what do you say to and I know you're not coaching the family members and stuff. So, like, you just brought up a great example like alcoholics have to admit that they're in that position in the first place. But then you also have Al-Anon, which is for family members and friends of alcoholics, where you have to also learn to support an alcoholic. So if it's not, if it's not substance abuse or it is substance abuse whichever, like, how do you as the family or the friend, know when to let them dig themselves out of their own grave versus? I'll give you a good example.
Johnna:So my brother, he used to be in and out of jail a lot and he would always get bailed out, whether that be by family members or friends or whatever. And my theory and maybe I'm wrong, this is just a question Sometimes I think he should have just sat there and had to think about what he did and why he got there and maybe he wouldn't keep going back. But again, I know everyone's, like you said, everyone's different in their thought processes. But that was my thought process. I was like why don't y'all just let him sit, sit there? And of course, when I talked to other family members they're like. Because that's my, that's my family, I'm not going to do that.
Meenu:You know that's also. I hate to say this. This is also very subjective, because I'll give you an example. I have a three strike system with people, with friends, with lovers. Three strike system. You do me wrong three times. You're out, yeah, right. Some people will be like, why do you have a three strike? Like they should be out the first time. What are you talking? Like, don't you have boundaries? Like why would you do that? Some people will say, no, their family, it's endless. What do you mean? There are three strikes, right. So I think it really depends on your personal values and where you draw that line and the what grace would you give yourself? So that is what I would ask you. Right, if you were facing that situation and if you wanted somebody else to give you grace, what would you expect from them? And that is something that you can do after, upon reflection, to see if that still feels good for you right.
Meenu:I will say after they're 21, they're pretty much adults. Yeah, sit them down, we can talk to them, we can even be so kind to like pay for their rehab once or pay for a few therapy sessions out of love and kindness. You don't have to do it out of love and kindness, but even in coaching, even in therapy and you know this, jonah, I know this, I've said it in countless podcasts you have to want a different outcome.
Johnna:Right, and I guess that's because maybe because I've been through the coaching and been through the therapy that I know that's what I've been told and I know my family member has not been through the coaching and therapy. So like we have obviously very different mindsets when it comes to like I don't know, I guess, like I don't know how he's going to learn any different if he keeps getting bailed out of every situation. I'm sure he doesn't feel like he's been bailed out of every situation. Like you said, it's all subjective and you know this is my perspective and then he has his perspective and everything like that. And I love him dearly, don't get me wrong. It's just like when is enough enough for you? When do you want to stop living this life? And I know we can't want that for them and it's just, it just baffles me. And it's not just like.
Johnna:I talked to a coworker and she you know she was talking to me about the similar thing. She was like similar thing going on in her family, like she has finally like put her foot down, like I'm no longer helping this family member because they won't help themselves, but then her mom turns around and does it. So she's like like I'm trying to teach him a lesson to grow up, but if you're going to go behind my back and just help him anyways, then how's he going to learn?
Meenu:back and just help him anyways, then how's he going to learn? Right? And this is that's so crazy, because I read this in a book whatever you're talking about in this book called Power Manifesting, where the author, the book is about manifestation, but he also talks about this particular thing and he says when you constantly help people out of their misery or out of their suffering, you are A interfering with their karma, meaning they have certain karma that they need to fulfill and undergo in this lifetime to learn their lessons. Whether you believe it or not, I'm not going to go into that, right? The second reason is also, you are sabotaging their journey of them hitting rock bottom and then wanting to get up, but what you're doing is they're on the way there and you're pulling them up so they never really know what rock bottom is. And because they never really know what rock bottom is, they don't want a different outcome. Right?
Meenu:Honestly, I hate to say this they don't have enough pain, right, they haven't suffered enough. There has to be some catalyst to change it. Either has to be enough pain, enough suffering, or like there has to be some desperation, almost Not in an unhealthy way, but like you should have a burning desire to say this is it Like? I'm done being a victim? I'm done, you know, throwing pity parties. I'm done asking for help. I'm a grown-ass man. I'm done throwing pity parties. I'm done asking for help. I'm a grown-ass man. I'm a grown-ass woman. I need to figure this shit out by myself, right? And if you don't hit rock bottom, you may never have that feeling.
Johnna:And guys, I just want to throw a caveat. We're not talking about if someone's coming to you and they're saying they're suicidal or homicidal or anything like that. Obviously, don't ignore someone when they're saying that to you, because you never know if someone's being real or if they're not, so you always take that as a serious threat. We're talking about like things we were just talking about, whether that be in and out of jail. You know can't pay your bills, like when is that kind of thing enough, enough.
Johnna:We're not talking about mental health issues at this point right, I'm really glad you said that which just came into into my head because, you know, working in the ER I was like, oh wait, we should probably throw that caveat in there. We're not because, you know, and I get it People are like, oh, like. I've even heard people say that when someone comes up to them and they're like, hey, they're suicidal or and they'll be like I don't believe them. Well, we should always believe someone when they're saying that, because you just never know when someone you just never know Like, even if you're like they would never do that to themselves, you just never know, because depression is real and you just never know when it may be a real thing or a situation.
Meenu:No, absolutely, I totally agree. I feel like when somebody comes to you and asks for help, that's an invitation to fully participate and listen to their story and see how you can be of service. I've also had experiences where I've helped them when they've not asked and it's not received well. So I would still say, when it comes to, again, minor situations like I wouldn't say minor, but not suicidal and extreme situations, if they're not coming to you and you're constantly going and helping them, maybe you're doing that because it's really uncomfortable for you.
Johnna:It's kind of, if you think about it it's selfish, right right it is, and I'm glad you said that because, like that's, I guess maybe that's what the piece I was missing or hearing and just needed to hear, because sometimes I do feel like it is. You don't want to see them that way.
Meenu:And maybe it means something about you. Oh, my son, my brother, my relative, oh, it's a pride issue. I can't have that happen to my family, so I have to clean up the mess before it gets worse. Like you know, just make it about pride and ego, not really thinking about that person and whether that's helping them, helping them grow, helping them better themselves. You're not really really there, right?
Johnna:So how would you, as a coach, ethically weigh them having autonomy versus protection in that situation where, like, maybe they're sitting in jail and the family member keeps bailing them out, how would you tell the client versus the family member, like this is their autonomy versus the family protecting them? Yeah.
Meenu:I think there's multiple layers to it. For example, if the person that went to jail is my client, I would fully, 100% ask them if they've learned their lesson. What is the different behavior? Because, remember, behavior is a language. It doesn't matter if you keep saying I want to change, I want to be better. I'm not going to do that anymore. Yeah, it sounds really great and it's pleasing to the ears. I'm not going to do that anymore. Yeah, it sounds really great and it's pleasing to the ears, but if your behavior is not different, then you're not doing anything different, right? So if I were, if they were my client, that's what I would say. If behavior were a language, what would you be doing differently from what you did before, and how would you hold yourself accountable for that? Or do you want me to hold you accountable, or do you have somebody else holding you accountable for the different actions you have to take? But if the family members were my clients, I would ask them what exact, what is the exact reason why you keep bailing them out?
Meenu:Yeah, why do you feel like you need to keep saving them? Is it a you thing? Is it a them thing? Is it an ego thing? Are you uncomfortable. You're not able to sleep at night thinking about it. Then I'm so sorry that's a you problem. Take a pill, regulate yourself. Don't meditate Like, yeah, sit in a salt cave. Like don't take that upon, you know, like unhealthy actions in saving someone and having to save your complex saying, oh, I'm going to make it about me. I'm this great person that always, like, pulls my nephew out of the jail or pulls my son out of the jail, like because that's giving you a boost to your ego and who you are. Trust me, john, I've seen a lot of people do this Like they legit have that superiority savior, complex, hero, complex, yeah, whoa. It's like you can't even trust people that want to help you anymore right, right, no, that makes perfect sense.
Johnna:Like, going back to the example of my sister, like and don't get me wrong, my sister is doing so much better. She's, you know, changed her whole life around and she finally did decide like she made that decision. She decided she made efforts and changes. So I'm not taking that away from her. I'm talking about like this is like in high school and stuff so years ago.
Johnna:But my mom and me would talk later in life and her exact words now and you're kind of triggering my memory was because I would always ask her like why do you keep bailing her out? Why do you keep like, let her hit that bottom to where she wants to change? And my mom's exact words were I feel like this is my fault, because I feel like if I would have been there more because I feel like I work too much, if I would have been there more because I feel like I work too much, if I would have been there more, she wouldn't have acted like that. So I feel like this is my fault, so I feel like I have to fix it.
Meenu:Right, so now it's about her guilt and now it's about her fixing her shame and not really thinking is it of the greatest and the highest service to that person?
Johnna:Right. So I'm glad you said that, because I didn't even think about it like that. But then, like thinking back on past conversations, I was like that completely makes sense.
Meenu:A lot of people keep doing that. Like if my client comes and tells me I keep saving this person, I keep doing this, they keep coming to me for advice, I keep saving them, I keep. I'm like the first thing I ask them is what do you get out of it?
Johnna:And first they'll be like I don't get anything out of it I'm.
Meenu:I'm just being there for them. I said no, no, no, you're getting something out of it. It's either like an ego boost. It's either you're thinking that you're a better, better than them, which I'm not. I'm not judging you. I just want you to be honest in what you are really gaining from constantly and continually needing to be of service to somebody else that needs to take responsibility, that needs to grow up and take accountability.
Johnna:Would you say this thought just came into my head. Would you say that because I was just thinking about my childhood trauma and how I thrived in chaos and when things were kind of like steady and normal. Sometimes I inserted myself into those things, not willingly or knowingly, but maybe subconsciously going I need a little chaos because it's feeling a little too safe over here. It's feeling.
Meenu:It's almost feeling unfamiliar because that's your familiar territory, even though you don't like it and you don't consciously seek it. That's what you're used to. So you unconsciously sometimes put yourself maybe in situations, friend groups, scenarios where there's maybe some drama. Maybe you need to fix something, because you were the fixer you know, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Johnna:So what healing approaches would you say would reinforce self-efficacy rather than dependence, especially in long term? Solutions for the client. Meaning the one that is for for the, the client, meaning the one that is, um, constantly doing things, not really bottom people getting them out. How would you if they decided like, okay, I need to change. And they came to you and they were like, how would you give it? What healing approaches would you give them to say, let's make you self-efficient versus self-dependent, where you feel like, or yeah, dependent, not independent, is it right?
Meenu:I always get confused on independent.
Meenu:I get where you're going with this. I want to take you a level deeper and give you another answer. The first thing I would ask them is why do you want to change? Because if you're doing it for your mom, it's not going to stick. If you're doing it for your lover, it's not going to stick. If you're doing it for your lover, it's not going to stick. You're doing it for your kids. Maybe, maybe it'll stick for some more time, longer time than the others, but it's not going to stick, right. So why are you doing it? And unless they say I am so sick of my behavior, I'm so sick of being this person, I'm doing it for me because I want change.
Johnna:Everything else it's just, it's all fluff, it's just background noise for me, I love that you're triggering my memory with everything you say, but go ahead.
Meenu:Until I hear those words, I have it in my consult form actually for anybody that wants to work with me. I ask them on a scale of zero to 10, what is the number that comes to you and how much better you want to feel like you want?
Meenu:a different life or a different outcome, and if it's less than seven, I'm not. I'm canceling that call with a polite email. Yeah, cause then I'm not going to put my time and effort in helping you and you're not going to waste your money and time and working with me when you don't have like a burning desire. You're not really ready. You need to be talked into doing the work Like come on.
Johnna:That's so funny Cause when I first started working with you, like this is what triggered when you said that I was like I was so ready to change my ways of the men that I was picking.
Johnna:Like the men that I was picking, I was like I can't keep living like this. I feel miserable and not just and I not just the men I was picking, but like in my life in general, like the relationships that I was having, how I was communicating with people it was just making me so miserable because I was trying to fix everything in my life and it was just causing more drama and chaos. So I remember that. I remember when I came to you, I was like take all my money, I don't care, I need to change.
Meenu:Yeah, and see, that desire is why a lot of the tools work really well for you. A lot of the tools were of service to you. If you didn't have that desire, you're not going to be showing up on time for the sessions, you're not going to be doing the homework, you're not going to be. You're not going to do that. So I would take it a level deeper and ask the client why do you want to change? Was it inspired by you or was it inspired by other people? Right, and then, depending on their answer, I will say well, if you want to change, the first thing we have to work on is building self-trust, because that relationship that you have with yourself let's not fluff around it's broken. It's broken. So you can't just wake up and say, oh, I trust myself to not be an addict tomorrow. I trust myself to not fuck up tomorrow. If it was that easy, everybody else would be doing it. Right, it is not that easy.
Johnna:And I love that they have now came out with research showing that addiction isn't just a choice. It is a brain chemical dysfunction and so, like it's, it's no different than depression and how your body is missing serotonin or dopamine, and you're seeking these things to make yourself feel a certain way that you can't feel without it like regardless, and so, like I've never been an addict, so I can't sit here and say I completely understand, but I've all.
Johnna:I have had anxiety for a long time and like it's no different than someone telling me stop being so anxious about everything. And I'm you know, you're just like. I would love to stop being so anxious about everything.
Meenu:I would love that I could sleep at night and not have insomnia, you know.
Johnna:So I do love that people are like recognizing that this is a, you know, a brain dysfunction and a chemical imbalance in people. I feel like there are two different things, because when someone has a substance abuse and it's more of a brain chemical thing, it's not necessarily the same as someone choosing to make a choice over and over to quit their job without another job, not go go shopping with all their money and not paying their bills first, and then expecting someone to pay your bills because you chose to not be responsible as a, you know, 30 yearold or something like those. And I'm not saying that being an addict isn't a choice. I understand it's a choice every day whenever they choose to get help, but I feel like it's a little bit different because it's almost like they can't control it in a way.
Meenu:That's right, they can't control it. I will say a lot of magical things happen when they say that, hey, I'm not able to control it. I want to get better, I want to change, I'm ready, I'm open. It's going to be really hard, but I'm ready to take, like, the first step because I've worked with a lot of addicts and guess what? They're not addicts anymore. And again, I'm not a therapist, I'm not a doctor. I just want to be really honest. I am a certified life coach and I have been certified in certain modalities that directly help with trauma release and release of emotional baggage in the body. Right, right.
Meenu:This person that I worked with was addicted to drinking beer and he would not stop with one, he would have four. Yeah, and I asked him why do you do that? And he said that's my way of relaxing. Every night I have to watch the show and I have to have a drink in my hand. It's a, it's a pattern, almost like hold something in this right hand and watch the show. I said, okay, what if we switch that to juice first? So we switch that to juice for the first three weeks and then in the next few weeks we switch that to sparkling water, and guess what? It worked, good it.
Meenu:But he also had to make a choice that every time I have the urge I'm going to go journal about it. Every time I feel tempted I'm going to pick up the phone and open Voxer and talk to Meenu about it and ask her for some tips and reframes on how I want to reframe my thoughts. So you see there was a lot of work and repetitive choices. You have to make a choice every day when you're in that situation. It's not like you wake up and say I want to be better and then it just life is not happening for you. You create it, you co-create life with God, with the universe, depending on what you want to see and want to create each day.
Johnna:I agree with that. I know we mentioned boundaries earlier. What would you say the role of boundaries in compassionate involvement, and how do we train the family members and the friends to hold them effectively so that that person can seek out the change that they need?
Meenu:I think you can be really kind and let's hypothetically assume this is the fourth time they're bailing this person out or they're helping this person, right? Whoever? This is, I think, an intervention and everybody sitting down and saying, hey, like we really want you to get better. The reason why we've been doing this is because we see the potential. We see that you've almost started doing it and then you backtrack. But we want you to know that this is it. We love you. We've done it one last time, but after this, it's on you. It's on you, and if you do this next time, if this happens one more time, I want you to know that we will still love you, but the way we show you love will be different. Right, we're going to trust that you may have to hit rock bottom. You may have to have moments of growth and moments of pain for you to want to change on your own Right. So you can literally be super kind, super compassionate and have a very honest conversation and say this is the boundary.
Johnna:Right, and I guess I would like, if I like, looking, because I used to tell my mom all the time when she would keep doing this and like and I saw the pain it was causing her as well because nothing, you know that the actions weren't there. There was, it was the same thing, kind of in repeat motion, for years, and I would tell her. I was like, mom, you really need to go to therapy. I was like you need to figure out a way to cope with this too, because this is becoming a codependent situation. It's almost like she needed that in her life to feel important.
Meenu:Yes, and it's really sad you say this, because another thing that's ringing in my brain again this is not about boundaries, or this is not about addiction or anything the podcast is about, but just a quick side note is a lot of people keep repeating toxic behaviors and patterns because it makes them feel important and significant, and I hate to say this. A lot of parents have kids because it makes them feel significant. They don't have children for the right reasons.
Johnna:Yeah, yeah, to say this a lot of parents have kids because it makes them feel significant. They don't have children for the right reasons, yeah, yeah, I mean I made a choice a long time ago like speaking on this topic to not have children, not because I don't love and adore children. It was a choice I made for me because of personal. You know, you know thoughts and things like that which may be weak, and I know you've made a similar choice. I've made a similar choice. We should.
Johnna:We should totally do like that we should do a podcast on that, because I know a lot of people when they hear a woman say they don't want children, especially in the South, I feel like the first thought that some people have is wow, you're really selfish to not have a child and it's not. And or, oh, you must hate children and it's like. No, I love and adore children, like all my friends. Children. I love them. I want them to go back home at the end of the night. That's exactly right.
Meenu:That's exactly right and I think a lot of people have so much shame and, admitting it, I used to date this. Oh my God. I used to date this guy in college and he would shame me when I when I told him I don't know if I wanted to have children. This was when I was 20 years old. I was a baby. I'm 35 now. I was 20. And you'd be like how can a woman say that You're a woman, you should have this. So, because of shame, I feel like so many people can't even say that. Oh, I'm kind of on the fence or I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about these factors because there's so much judgment and shame. Unfortunately, that not only comes from men, but comes from other women.
Johnna:Yeah, there is. Now it's getting better, like I've noticed. Like cause I? You know, I had the same thoughts in my twenties as well.
Meenu:And then it's getting better.
Johnna:And then now like not to get off guys on topic, but I mean it's just, it's a relevant topic. And now like not to get off guys on topic, but I mean it's just, it's a relevant topic. And, like you know, a lot of my friends have had infertility issues and like I will still empathize with them. But I also can't fully know what that's like, because I've never wanted something like that, so bad and not be able to happen and I feel for my friends because, like I'm like I will be here for you.
Johnna:And I feel for my friends because, like I'm like I will be here for you, I'll support you in any way I can. But I don't. I personally can't say I don't know what that feels like, because I've never wanted that, and then it not happen.
Meenu:No, absolutely Absolutely. And that comes back full circle, right? If you don't want anything so bad, it's hard to make it happen. Right? And that goes with mental health. That goes with whether you're an addict and you want to change, whether you keep going back to jail and you don't want to, whether you keep dating the same people but you don't want to. Well, I'm sorry to say this, but at a very core level, you have to want a different outcome.
Johnna:Yeah, and would you say. I guess, like a lot of people, stay in that cycle of what, no matter what we're talking about here, whether, like you just said, going back to the same type of guy, going back to your ex-boyfriend, going back to or staying in a terrible job or anything, would you say that's because that's that familiar. I can never say that word, familiarity.
Meenu:There, you go.
Johnna:I'm not going to go try. It's because that and like, like I said, that childhood trauma where maybe they were used to chaos and they have to have that to feel a sense of normalcy.
Meenu:Absolutely. And then for these people, let me tell you and when I say these people, I don't want you guys to think that I'm putting them down, I'm just, I used to be one of those people Same same same. It's coming from a lot of growth and reflection, right, and when I see them, I also notice that the unknown territory is more scary for them than the known pain. They know that the suffering is going to hurt. They they've been through it so many times but they know what's going to hurt, how long it's going to hurt, how painful it's going to be. They, they almost know that, right. But healing and freedom they don't know what to do with that because they're not used to it.
Meenu:I legit had a client this was in 2022. She said I want to change, but I'm really scared, like I have no idea what my life looks like if I don't have anxiety, if I don't wake up stressed like on a level 10 every day. Yeah, if I'm not screaming at my children, I don't wake up stressed like on a level 10 every day, if I'm not screaming at my children, I don't know what that looks like, right? And so, because of that unknown element and it's so scary, because anything unknown is scary to the guess what subconscious. It's so scary to the subconscious because we always choose familiar patterns due to safety. So healing is unfamiliar to them. It's unknown to them. Growth is unknown to safety, so healing is unfamiliar to them. It's unknown to them. Growth is unknown to them. So they're almost sabotaging and they keep staying in that. So now this is where the real magic happens is when they say anything is better than this. When they say that, then they're saying I accept any other outcome except this pain. That means they're ready for something else.
Johnna:Do you think a person can get to that point if someone is always there? I don't want to say bailing them out, because I don't know if that's the correct term, but I guess quote unquote bailing them out, if someone's always bailing them out of their situation, their trouble, their chaos, their anxiety, whatever it is, if someone's always doing that. I'll give an example. So for me, like if I was like dating the same guy for a long period of time, over and over and over, and I would go to the same friend for years, over and over and over, and they never said hey, john, I love you dearly, but it's been two, three years. We're not talking about this anymore.
Johnna:You, what was going to change? Nothing. I was going to go back, get my feelings hurt, go run to my friend, cry about it. They were going to be like come here, there, there, there, there, and then what happens? I go back, get hurt, go back to my friend, and until I had no one to talk to and sit in my pain with that, there was no thought process. Don't get me wrong. I wasn't like oh, I love this, this is fun. No, I get it, yeah. Do you think that someone can have that thought of I want to change if someone is constantly not letting go of them.
Meenu:Meaning if you have somebody. Are you saying if you have a friend or someone that's constantly telling you? Are you asking me if it's still possible to change?
Johnna:Yeah, like, do you think that someone will still have that realization of I need to change. I can't keep doing this If you always have someone enabling you.
Meenu:Yes, because let me tell you, this Life is full of surprises. That person is there for you today. You don't know that person is going to be there for you tomorrow. Of surprises that person is there for you today. You don't know if that person is going to be there for you tomorrow, right, you don't know if that person's going to change their mind.
Meenu:Everybody has a tolerance limit. Everybody has a bandwidth. Even I've seen the most generous people, the more giving people flip because something has just flipped in their mind and they're like I don't want to do this anymore, I don't want to coddle them anymore, I don't want to be there anymore. It's exhausting. So I've seen that happen and I will say the universe has a way of bitch slapping you. It's like you can't.
Meenu:I don't think anybody can get out really without learning like some big lessons in this lifetime. You think you're escaping, but you're good for now. Sure, it feels like you're cushioned and you're safe and you have people to bail you out and things. But what happens when you get into a relationship tomorrow? What are you going to do then when you have to clean up after your shit and you have to show up as a husband and a father and take ownership and responsibility. What are you going to say at that time? So I feel like life is full of surprises, the universe is full of surprises. Yes, you can have someone but likely to answer your question. If you continually have somebody that's doing that, you're not going to get better, right?
Johnna:Agreed, you're not. You're not. What is the difference? Or how can we help someone without enabling yeah?
Meenu:I do this sometimes with people is I'll just have conversations. I'll just say there was. There is this friend of mine that had a conversation with me a few months ago. She complains about the same person. It's another friend. Right, they trigger each other. Great Girl friendships trigger each other. She constantly complains about her. I said hey, I love you dearly and we've been friends for 28 years. I love you dearly. No man has ever triggered you this much. But this person clearly is triggering you so much. But I feel very negative whenever I keep talking about this and it's starting to feel negative. Can we say change the subject and can we talk about something else? Okay, Because I've already given you feedback on what you can do with this other friend. I've already given you feedback on how you can set boundaries. I've given you tips, tricks, on how you can protect your energy. And if you make a choice that you don't want to do that and you want to keep complaining, you can do that, but I'm not your person.
Johnna:OK, so it's just a polite conversation to just you know, be like I care. But this is, and I'll say, like you know, my friends used to do that to me when I was obsessed with a guy for many, many years she finally got to the point where she was like listen, I love you, but my advice hasn't changed. But my advice hasn't changed. Yeah, so I really would appreciate it if we didn't talk about this anymore. Yeah, because it was disrupting her peace and I completely respected that and I understood it and, honestly, without her saying that to me, like I said, I probably would have stayed in the cycle.
Meenu:Hmm, and sometimes you have to. I know this sounds really brutal, but sometimes you have to kind of get hurt to like get it yeah. And whether that's a friend rejecting you, rejecting your complaints, rejecting your energy, something has to happen for that change to happen on a deep level, Almost yeah.
Johnna:Would you say there's a different. Well, I know there's a difference, but, like, I feel like there are true manipulators where they know how to manipulate a situation and continue to get that support and where someone will continue to enable, but it's not really enabling, because they're doing it on purpose to manipulate. So how can we identify? I guess it would be learned helplessness, like I'm going to be helpless so that someone can help me, but it's not. And then there's the people that truly that they don't recognize it. It's a subconscious thing that they're doing it and they're because people aren't letting them hit rock bottom. So how do we, like, differentiate that learned helplessness and to know, okay, look, they actually really could help themselves?
Meenu:Oh my God, Sometimes I think you're psychic. Are you sure you're not? Because me and another best friend today we were talking about manipulative people and we were talking exactly about somebody we know that acts like a wounded bird all the time, acts like you know they need support all the time, they need help all the time, but they're just fine, but they act like that. So I did this like a little test in a in a friendship that that's been coming up in my life recently and I saw if they ever wanted to just hang out without me doing anything for them.
Meenu:Right, do you just want to go and have coffee? Do? Do you just want to, you know, meet me for lunch? Do you just want to catch up without me giving A value, b, resources, c advice, like, do you just want to be my friend? And I started observing because I'm a very silent observer. When I get hurt or annoyed or I feel manipulated or played, I am somebody that keeps quiet for a long time and I get into like observing mode and everything is under a microscope for the next few weeks Under my radar right, yeah.
Meenu:And I just saw things so clearly and I saw that I was being used and I was just like I'm played. But you know what? I caught it early and I'm glad that I caught it early, because now I can have boundaries and now I don't have to give into where they're, they're not wounded, they are just fine, and they only need me because they need something. So a quick way to spot it is are they just wanting to hang out with you for your genuine energy, for your kind heart, to just be with you and spend time with you, or is it always like I want to hang out with you? Hey, by the way, can you do this favor? Can you do this for me? Obviously, they're trying to outsmart you. They're trying to say oh, I want her to think that I'm hanging out with her because I like her, but but also like I'm getting this thing out of her right.
Johnna:No, that makes complete sense, because I, when you were saying that, I was thinking about a few people in my life like that, I was like, yeah, that checks out, that checks out. What, um would you say? Is it ever okay to walk away from someone struggling?
Meenu:Yes, and that depends on your moral and ethical code and that also depends on your personal bandwidth. I will never I mean unless a friend asks me for advice or a client asks me for advice I will never say break up with him, do this, do that, like no. This is toxic, because everybody's bandwidth is very different and everybody's abuse tolerance is different, so tolerance is different. So I would check in and ask, whoever that person is, who's getting burnt out or getting exhausted, that how do I feel? Am I feeling like I'm still holding space with overflow? Or do I have bitterness or resentment in being of service? Or am I getting a kick in my ego and a boost inside myself whenever I save somebody?
Meenu:Why is this happening? And why do I keep doing this, all these questions, to do some self-reflection. And if it doesn't feel good, if it doesn't feel like it's coming from overflow and a genuine place of love and it's coming at a selfish cost, believe me when I say it is selfish sometimes to help someone, it is because you're doing it, because you want to feel better. I agree, I can't tell you how many times it has felt so hard for me to not help, like it's felt so hard to not do it, because I didn't want to be selfish.
Johnna:Right, no, I completely agree. So how then can we set those boundaries to not feel guilty if you walk away from someone struggling? Because I think that's something like that my mom struggled with is that she felt the guilt, like you mentioned earlier, and she, she, she genuinely thought my sister was struggling, so she felt guilty walking away from that. And how could she have, at that time, set better boundaries and not felt that guilt?
Meenu:I think guilt and shame dies literally dies when you say it as it is Meaning hey, I fucked up when I raised you and this is where I messed up. This is where I did wrong. This is what I should have done, but instead I did this because I wasn't self-aware and I didn't know better and I was dysregulated, so I was coming from a place of what can I do and I didn't think through it. However, you're an adult, I'm an adult. I have seen again remember, behavior is a language. You want to look at patterns, not feelings, right? I have seen a pattern that every time I've helped, it's not gotten better. I've seen evidence and proof that every time I've helped, it's not gotten better. I've seen evidence and proof that every time I've intervened, you've not grown, you've not changed. So I want to try something different and I want to take a backseat and I'm going to trust you to figure this out.
Johnna:Oh, I love that. I love that Because that's not negative, that's not saying screw you, I'm done. I love that because that's a very mature way to have that conversation and that other person probably will still be mad, but not as mad, because that conversation didn't take a turn you can say my love is never going to change, right, but my support is going to change.
Meenu:The way I want to hold space is going to change, because I want to. I've done these things and these patterns and this has not served you and this has not served me. And I also don't want to be in a place where I am doing it to appease myself. I don't want to do it out of guilt and shame, because I've now owned to my mistakes. I've owned up to all the wrong things that I've done. I don't want to carry it and I don't want to do it from that place. If I do it, I want to do it out of love and I feel like I've already done it and it's not different.
Johnna:Right, I love that. No, I really I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, what would you say? The emotional cost to the person doing all the saving would be?
Meenu:Oh my God, I can't even, I can't even begin.
Johnna:Well, I haven't. So save that, because this might help you trigger something in what you're going to say. Cause my next question to you is going to be can trying to help that person too much create trauma for either person?
Meenu:I mean absolutely Trauma. I like to say it will totally stop the growth of the victim who is going through this issue I don't even want to say victim, let's say client. That's like going through that person that's going through this and for the other person, it stops them from being validated Because, remember, every time they help and they say thank you, you're such a good person for helping me. They're being validated that they're a good person, they're a good citizen, they're a helpful mother, they're a helpful parent. So that sense of validation, guess what? They're going to have to get it from somewhere else. They're going to have to self-validate and see if I don't help this person, if I don't do this, am I able to regulate myself? Am I still able to validate myself? So it's not really a trauma response, but it's almost removing certain parts that you're used to, certain addictions that you're used to, which is maybe being seen and being validated and being appreciated. It's learning to live without that and asking am I still enough if I don't get all these things from outside?
Johnna:Yeah, 1000%. No, I appreciate this topic has been great. Now I do have. I've been doing rapid fires at the end of my podcast lately. And I want to do a rapid fire with you. It's a game called helper or enabler.
Johnna:So it's quick answers, don't overthink. It's just the first thing that comes to your brain, usually just a one word or a sentence Okay, boundaries Easy or hard for you? Easy. Do you believe people can change? Yes, ever enabled someone and regretted it? Yes, what's harder saying no or watching someone fail? Yes, what's harder saying no or watching someone fail.
Johnna:Watching someone fail, do you fix or feel first, feel Ever ghosted a toxic situation instead of confronting it? No, never. I'm very communicative. Same girl, I communicate too much, and you, you know that my texts are ran down sometimes, but anyways, moving on, most overused excuse you hear from enablers when you say enablers, you mean the ones that are helping the victims, yeah, and they keep enabling them to keep doing what they're doing.
Meenu:Oh, if I don't do this, who will?
Johnna:Yep, one thing you wish people knew about helping too much.
Meenu:That they're ruining them. They're ruining them. They're ruining their growth, yep, their self-trust, their confidence. They're destroying it.
Johnna:What's your personal red flag for enabling destroying it?
Meenu:What's your personal red flag for enabling Ego? They're doing an art of ego. It's all about you. It's not about them, it's about you.
Johnna:Can you love someone and still walk away? Yes, one word to describe what enabling feels like To me.
Meenu:Suffocation.
Johnna:Helping Heart or head first Heart Is guilt, ever useful.
Meenu:Yes, Give us an example when guilt would be useful. Well, let's just say guilt has been real useful for me when I've eaten like big meals these last few weeks and I always like to have a sweet treat after the meal and I'd be like, oh my God, I ate so much, so I would feel a little bit guilt. And then I walked after my meals. That really helped with my glucose and my blood sugar and I never had crashes. I felt great. So I would say guilt sometimes is useful.
Johnna:And then one thing that always makes you want to save someone.
Meenu:When they're willing.
Johnna:When they say I'm ready. Then you're wanting to save them.
Meenu:I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed when someone says they're ready, can't stop me what's the hardest let go moment you've seen. What is let go moment.
Johnna:Like someone letting them finally go and do it themselves.
Meenu:I mean, it's happened every day with my clients. So I would say, working with addicts it's the hardest, it's the hardest Working with addicts But's the hardest when I had to.
Meenu:It's the hardest Working with addicts. But let me actually top you up even more Working with really, really anxiously attached people in relationships, yeah, and then I tell them, instead of spiraling and contacting them, sit with yourself, you know, and use these tools to regulate it was. It's so hard for me to let go because I almost want to tell them you don't text them, you can text me. But then that's also not good because that's enabling them.
Meenu:Exactly Because they're still staying anxious, that's right, and they're still. I'm still coddling them. Now their partner is not doing it, I'm doing it. So I had to be like you can reach out to me, but you instead do these exercises and, once you've regulated, reach out to me and tell me what you did. Now that was very empowering. So that letting go moment is really hard for me, because I know how difficult it is to regulate when you're spiraling.
Johnna:But at the same time, it's also very rewarding because I've seen them do it. Yep, no, I love that. Well, thank you again, as always, for doing these podcasts with me and sharing your knowledge and wealth of everything that you do. Guys, thank you for listening. If you like this podcast, share it with a friend, go write mean news podcast on transcend into wellness and mine on Babbel's nonsense. And until next time, until next time, guys.
Meenu:until next time. Thank you so much, guys, and thank you, jonna, for the most amazing questions we have. I have heard so much feedback now in our podcast and everybody has said you guys have great chemistry.
Johnna:Same thing I know I get it all the time. I'll be like I just, and then and y'all keep that like we love when you reach out to us or dm us and let us know what topics you want us to discuss, because sometimes we're fresh out of ideas and when y'all give us a topic that you want to hear, we will do some research and we will get some questions together and we'll do a podcast.
Meenu:Yeah, we love doing this. So, yes, keep us posted. Thank you so much, guys, for tuning in, and we will definitely see you more in future episodes. All right, guys bye, bye.
