Babbles Nonsense
Welcome to my verbal diary where I want to discuss any and all things that is essentially on my mind or have wondered about. Sometimes I will be solo and then other times I will have some amazing guests to bring all different perspectives in life. The ultimate goal is to hopefully bring some joy, laughter, inspiration, education, and just maybe a little bit of entertainment. Don't forget to like, rate, and share the podcast with a friend!
Babbles Nonsense
Living Life on Your Own Terms Without Children w/ Meenu
#187: The decision not to have children isn't made lightly, yet it's often dismissed as selfish or temporary. In this candid conversation, we pull back the curtain on what it truly means to be child-free by choice in 2025, starting with an important distinction – the difference between being "childless" versus "child-free." This isn't about what's missing from our lives; it's about defining life on our own terms.
We share our personal journeys to becoming child-free women, revealing how neither of us started with an absolute "no" to motherhood. Instead, our paths evolved through self-reflection, witnessing others' experiences, and honestly assessing what we wanted from life. The statistics back up what we're experiencing – nearly one in three adults without children now say they never want them, with women leading this cultural shift.
The financial reality of raising children today is staggering. We break down the numbers: $18,865 for pregnancy and delivery, childcare costs rising over 50% in just two years, and approximately $300,000 to raise a child to age 17. Beyond finances, we explore the other top reasons women choose not to have children – from valuing personal freedom to concerns about climate change, and the persistent lack of societal support for parents. The conversation gets real when we address the myth that being child-free means being anti-child. As we explain, many of us absolutely adore children – we just don't want the 24/7 responsibility.
Whether you're child-free, a parent, or somewhere in between, this episode invites you to challenge assumptions and embrace the idea that there's no single right path to a fulfilled life. Join us for this thoughtful exploration of choice, stigma, and finding joy in the life you design. Then share your thoughts – have you faced judgment for your reproductive choices?
You can now send us a text to ask a question or review the show. We would love to hear from you!
Follow me on social: https://www.instagram.com/babbles_nonsense/
What is up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Babbles Nonsense podcast. As promised from last week's tangent, me and Minyu are diving into why motherhood is often treated like a default setting, something women are expected to step into without question, but more and more women are saying no thanks. Choosing to be child free isn't about what's missing. It's about defining your life on your own terms. In this episode, we're unpacking what it really means to live child-free by choice. We'll talk about the differences between being child-free and childless, why language matters and what the latest research tells us about this cultural shift.
Speaker 1:And spoiler, the numbers don't lie Nearly one in three adults without children now say they never want them, and women are leading that change. We'll dive into the stigma, the so-called selfish label and the freedom that comes with making a choice many people still don't understand. We'll also explore the gray areas what it means to be on the fence, how personal stories and relationships can shift our perspective and why changing your mind isn't weakness, it's growth. And, most importantly, we'll challenge the myth that being child-free means being anti-child, because living fully without parenthood isn't about rejecting kids. It's about embracing freedom, purpose and joy in a different way. So let's get into it, the cost, the culture, the conversations and the courage it takes to say parenthood just isn't for me welcome back beautiful people into another episode with Babbles, nonsense and Transcend Into Wellness.
Speaker 2:Obviously, after last week's episode, we got on a roll again and we might be doing a few back to backs, so yeah agreed.
Speaker 1:Here we are. So this is a hot topic that me and my friends actually talk about quite a bit, and we we did get off on it last week a little bit, so we were like let's just do a whole podcast on it. So it's about how some women choose not to have children and that's a choice they made. We're not talking about, like, when people have infertility issues or stuff like that. We're talking about it truly just being a choice not to have a child.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's obviously still a big stigma and it's still taboo to say it out loud. Yes, it's 2025, but it's still taboo.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Agreed. And you know, I think a lot of people misunderstand on how we define the choice, meaning like you can say I'm childless or you can say I'm child free. Right, and I choose to say that I'm child free and Jonna chooses the same thing. Because, yes, all the biological markers may still be great, our health might be in great shape. Whatever that is, this is a conscious decision we've made due to several reasons that we have already thought about so much in the last few years. So I guess the first thing would be how do you want to be identified? Do you want to say I'm childless or Do you want to say I'm childless or do you want to say I'm child free? Because when you say I'm child free, you come to more owning that choice rather than saying childless, which is all like the universe or God doesn't want me to give me a child, so childless.
Speaker 1:you know right, yeah, and like when? When I read this I was like, oh, that's a good point, because language does matter around this, because there is a lot of infertility issues and so some women who do desperately want that and then they're not given that choice. They are childless, they're not child free because they want that option, and so I never thought about it in the context of that before until I started having friends that were going through infertility issues and saw how much they were struggling, because I could not relate to that, because that's not something I ever yearned for or wanted so bad. Now I will say this I had one time like I've never grown up, never had that, I've never been that girl. That's been like let me picture my family, let me picture myself in that wedding dress and perfect.
Speaker 1:Never, probably because I grew up poor and I didn't ever think it was going to happen anyways. But there was one time when I was going through my health stuff with my thyroid and then my hormones around the age of 30, where the doctor was like you probably won't be able to have kids with your hormones like this, and even though I knew in my mind that I had already made that choice for myself. It did kind of sting a little bit because I felt like then the choice was taken away without me making that decision, even though I had already made the decision.
Speaker 2:And it's so interesting, right? It's sometimes I feel like when other people outside present you with that choice and they make it for you, you suddenly you want it more. It's like scarcity creates more abundance in your mind, or something.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right. And it was literally for a brief second that I quickly got over that, but I was like wait a minute. What? What are you saying?
Speaker 2:No, I get it, girl. Like for me, I think my entire life and it's so interesting, my entire life I wanted kids. So I never didn't want kids. I wanted kids when I was a teenager. I wanted kids so I never didn't want kids. I wanted kids when I was a teenager, I wanted kids really. Yeah, when I was in my I would say, early 20s, late teens, I wanted kids.
Speaker 2:Again, I wasn't obsessed with wanting kids. I want you to understand the difference. I was like, yeah, I want, I want a baby. Like it's not like I talked about it, it's not like I decided what their names are, or boy or girl. You know how some women really have it like to a yeah, but like to a t, like everything, like the names and this and that, how many they want to have. Like I've never thought about it to that length. I was just like, oh, maybe I want children. You know I want children. They're cute. So that's the length in which I thought about it.
Speaker 2:And then, after I started doing a lot of inner work and owning my choices, and again, for me, being in United States has given me a lot of freedom of thought and freedom of speech so I can think the way I want to think.
Speaker 2:I'm not so programmed, right? Because if you live in the same country that you're raised, you're pretty programmed as to how that belief system is based on the culture, based on the people you grew up with, your parents, all of those things. And after I moved out, when I was 17 and a half, I started questioning it a little bit. I was like do I really want it, or am I thinking that I want it because that's where I, where I, come from? So I started becoming in the. I started getting in the in-between stages in my 20s and I was like, maybe I'll be okay if I want it and I'll also be okay if I don't want it. So I got to that stage in my 20s, yeah, and then in my 30s it was just hit on the nail. It was like I don't want kids. So right at me if I change my mind in five years. But right has been ringing true for me for the past five years and this hasn't changed.
Speaker 1:Well, I guess, yeah, I have a similar story. I guess, like I didn't grow up just going, nope, not having kids, don't want that. It was more. So I'm the youngest of let's see how many are there? One, two, three, four. I'm the youngest of five. So they all had started having children very young. So that my oldest sister, she's like God, please, if she listens to this, don't kill me. I think 45 now. So she no, she's got to be older than that because she's I was 10. She was 17. She's seven years older than me. So, yeah, so, yeah. So she's 45. And so she had a baby at 17. Then my sister had a baby at 17. And then my brother got someone pregnant when he was 17. So I was 10 when my oldest sister had her first child and they were living with us.
Speaker 1:So I saw the crying in the middle of the night, I saw the getting up. I saw that and I'm a very light sleeper, so I was getting up when they were crying and I was just like, who wants this? So I felt like, with all my nieces and nephews, that I had already experienced that and so, and then, when I was in my 20s, I was like, well, if it happens it happened, you know, I'm not like not gonna be upset about it, or you know, either way, I was very neutral to it and then, like you kind of like when I was in my 30s, I was like, yeah, no, no, I don't think, I want this.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, exactly, and I know there's just to talk about this a little bit. I think there's a lot of shame that goes around for right, especially women to say that they don't want children. Because I think society labels us as to we have to want children. It, it's primal. It should be in our DNA as a woman to crave and want children and to give that love and affection to that being and birth, that being. It should be integral, right, because there's a lot of shame. And so interestingly, let me tell you this, this is so interesting In my 30s, even though I had made a choice when I turned 30 that I don't want kids, I'm telling you, jonna, there's something definitely hormonal for women that goes on, where sometimes you feel like you want it.
Speaker 1:I've never felt it, though, yeah. I just haven't, I just haven't felt it. But also I'll be 38 in literally two months. So wait three months. So I'll be 38 in like literally two months. So wait three months. So I'll be 38 in three months. And it's like I'm also at that age where number one I mean, yes, I know people are having babies later in life. But at the same time, like when you like I'm not worried, like I'm not thinking about that, I'm thinking like I'm going to be 40 soon.
Speaker 2:I don't want a 20 year old when I'm 60.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that sounds crazy If you think about it right, like like not saying there's anything wrong with it, but personally, for me, that's at the age where I want to be like taking care of, like I would want like a 30, 30 year old child or a 35 year old child.
Speaker 2:Right, right, no, I get it. And so you know the shame comes from that. I think the shame also comes from talking about what is it that you can tolerate. For example, I had to be real with myself and ask am I okay being sleepless for two to three years or having very, very disturbed sleep for two or three years? And I had to be honest and say no, I'm actually going to be a bitch if I don't get my sleep. I'm not going to be a good and kind person if I don't get my sleep. I'm going to be an unhappy mother if I don't get my sleep.
Speaker 2:That's just how brutally honest I had to get with myself to ask yes, the idea of it sounds very nice and sweet and whatever, whatever I'm supposed to do, but am I able to enjoy the day to day? Am I able to enjoy the journey that comes with it and not just look at it as this is a price or this is a destination or this is a checklist? And and again I'm not saying the people that are listening you have to think like this this is just the way I'm wired and I have to think about these things and I have to think about what is it that I can tolerate? What is it that my body can tolerate? What is it that I will enjoy from day to day? And the motherhood experience doesn't come for me in that list of what I would enjoy day to day and the things that I want to do in a day to day basis.
Speaker 1:No, I have very similar thoughts on that and I know this is where that can get into what you were just saying. Like people, like some people label that as selfish, but and I used to think that because of societal pressures, but then I've had friends that have been like actually it's very self-aware. It's not selfish, because if you had a child and you know this about yourself, that is selfish. So, like I'm very similar, like I love going to the gym, I like to go early, I like to wake up, I like to do those things, I like to be able to go at a drop of a hat. Then if I had a kid, it's like what do I do with this? What? What do I do with this?
Speaker 2:yeah, you know it's. Yeah, it's a very valid question. I just wish more people questioned it like this. I'm not saying you have to make a choice not to have kids. I will never advocate for either of those. It's completely a different thing. But I think these things, these life-changing decisions, you have to think about them, right. You have to do it because it's romantic and it's the next thing to do. And oh, I love him so much so I want to have a kid with him, but also let's talk about that.
Speaker 1:Just because you want a kid, you could have all those thoughts and you could have that fantasy of wanting because you love him and you want to have a child. Again, I could change my mind tomorrow if I fell in love with the right person. I don't know. I know that my friends have told me, like some of my friends have had the same thoughts, like I didn't want kids and all that. And then when I had my kid, I was like how could I have never thought about wanting this and about wanting this and and maybe that you know, but I'm just saying like not everyone is blessed with a partner that is, as what's the word? Like um, accommodating, I guess, like people get pregnant off of when that stands.
Speaker 1:People get pregnant, you know, thinking that they're in love with someone and didn't realize that they were going to abuse them later in life. So it's not that it's and I know that's just everyone's yeah, but that's just a fear. You don't know that's going to happen. No, you don't. But you also don't know that it's not going to happen.
Speaker 2:That's right, and you know, what's crazy is, when I moved to Nashville in 2018, I met my now best friend. I met her in a movie theater and we just got into talking. We watched the movie and we started talking, went to Panera Bread to grab some dinner and then she was like so what's going on with you? And at that time I was married and I said you know nothing. And we just caught up and I said I'm in this like dilemma whether I should have kids or not. And she had two kids, right, and she goes. I don't really know you. Well, I just met you, but don't do it.
Speaker 2:I will never be not thankful for her honesty, because a lot of people want you to have it, because they have it and I hate to say it, misery is amusing with company.
Speaker 2:They're probably like I'm miserable, so I want you to be miserable. I need to do, and I did it because it's the right thing to do, and you need to do it because it's the right thing to do as a woman. So a lot of people project their values and their beliefs upon someone else, thinking that that's their value too, and I was just so I'm just so grateful to have a close group of friends and a lot of them have children and a lot of them tell me not to have children like and not that they don't love their children, they absolutely love their children. They would do it all over again. They will not change their decisions and you know their minds, but they also know who I am and they also know what I value, and so they're being very honest and candid with me and I really, really appreciated that honesty that she gave me, and my decision again is not based on her, but I think she just provoked the truth which is already in me, which I wasn't willing to see at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's a hard decision to make in me which I wasn't willing to see at that point. Yeah, it's. I mean it's it's a hard decision to make and, like now, if I had been in a loving relationship, you know, in my my later 20s, early 30s, would the decision have been different Possibly, like I possibly like if, if I was with someone who truly genuinely wanted a child, I would I'm not going to say no to that because I was very neutral at that time. It's more so like the older I get, it's like I'm getting closer to that age of number one. It's a geriatric pregnancy and there's more health complications and I'm not as young as I once was and like it's just those types of things the old, the closer I get to 40. It's like you know, let's tie this up and say it's done.
Speaker 2:Right, right, no, I understand. I mean it's a lot of people. For them it's health, for other people it's just a matter of choice. I feel like we're those people where it was okay, like it was kind of open ended, in our 20s and then I think, the more we got into our 30s, it was solidified as we got a year older and older. And I think for me personally I don't know about Jonna, but I think my decision was solidified more when I saw other people around me, because I am somebody that loves to learn from other people's experience, like I don't have to go through it to learn it. You know, I have a lot of my best friends, the stories they share with me and the things they tell me, and for me personally, everybody.
Speaker 2:A lot of people have said if you're on the fence, then don't do it. Like if you are very sure, if you're excited, you know this is a part of your purpose, then do it. But if you're on the fence, then that means you're already at a point where you know that you're not going to tolerate some of the things. Or you don't have the tolerance for some of the things, or you don't have the patience for some of the things. That's why you're on the fence. You're already skeptical, 50 percent right, and the motherhood experience is going to be harder for people that are on the fence because you're already one foot in, one foot out, yes, so I really appreciate that candid honesty that my friends gave, and so we really want to, in this episode, not just talk about defining the choice or how you want to frame it or your mindset, but we also want to talk about statistics. So Jonna has numbers pulled up.
Speaker 1:Yes, so we we wanted to be actually researched on this podcast instead of just talking. So, because I've been hearing a lot on TikTok and on the news lately that how much the birth rates have declined and how many more women are choosing not to have kids, and I think that was part maybe part of the political debate, because it was talking about, you know, how expensive fertility treatments were and stuff like that. So, per the Michigan State University, the people, the women that said they never wanted children in 2002 was 14%, but in 2023, it climbed to 29%. Whoa Right. So then people who were planning to have children went from 79% in 2002 to 59% in 2023. So it is declining, like more women are choosing to not have children.
Speaker 2:Right, and I have so many theories on this, but I would like to hear your perspective first on what has led them into this decision. I'm not saying again, not right or wrong. This is the reality, right? So what has led them to this reality?
Speaker 1:I personally think, just because of our other podcast and like doing research on that and then me doing some solo episodes on women empowerment and stuff like that, I didn't realize which is crazy. Number one I hate history, but I didn't realize how recent it was that women just became autonomous, like and that we're talking about, like their role wasn't to sit in the house, cook and clean. They're then getting careers, you know. They're then allowed to divorce their husband if they didn't want to. So I didn't realize, like, how recent that was, and so I think that now that it's even more booming like obviously in 2025, we're not dependent on someone else. So I think, as that continues to grow, I think we're going to continue to see a decline.
Speaker 2:That's actually very true, Because remember the power of choice, meaning you can say no whenever you want you can. You can change your mind tomorrow with the way things are going, and that's how I think things are headed in the future, Like what you're saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I also think and this is one of the reasons why I personally don't want a child Like I have not saying I've ever like I grew up in a struggling financial family and I saw how hard my mom worked, working two and three jobs with two children who she did have a terrible partner that wouldn't help her until she met my stepdad, and so I personally I know how expensive this world is and like to add a child to that. I'm just like how do people do it, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm going to literally take off my life coach hat for the next five minutes and I'm going to be very real and cynical, maybe a little cynical, but I just honestly think life is hard. It is hard, it is Okay. There are things changing rapidly around us every day. The future is unpredictable with the way the world is headed Climate change, there's just so many things happening. And then I remember I know this is not a big reason for everyone, but I remember when I was in middle school, high school, I hated, hated the experience of not having choices. I know that that's a very teenager, rebellious thing to say, but at that time I hated that, I hated the school I was going to, I hated, you know, the subjects I had to take and the classes I had to take. It was just a very, very bitter experience. And then obviously then we don't even have to talk about relationships breaking up, patching up relationship, meeting new person and then trusting new people, and then marriage, divorce. I just think again, I'm not being a life coach for five minutes.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to talk about how hard life is. That hardship is whether you are rich, whether you are poor. Whatever it is, the hardship is there.
Speaker 1:Like that emotional hardship.
Speaker 2:There is just hardship period. There's hardship in a way that nobody gets out alive. Let's just talk about that for a minute. Right right, no one get out alive in this life and I can walk out now and have a car accident. I'm not wishing that, but I'm just saying life is unpredictable. We can't control everything. We can't change things the way we want to at a time that we want to. Life is just very difficult and there's just a lot to navigate just for you being a person, you having a career, you making money, you having sanity with your mental health and everything.
Speaker 1:There is just too many things to balance for one person right and like you being a life coach, like I think trauma also plays into one of the reasons why I don't want to have a child, because I don't want to screw somebody up.
Speaker 1:And then like it doesn't matter how good, or like you parent the best you can. I know everybody does the best they can they get what they know from what they, what they have. Like you've always told me you do what you do with the tools that you have. And so like my mom, who had raised two me and my sister in the same house the same way, you know there wasn't really much difference. And then you know my sister went through all her stuff where she was in trouble all the time. And you know my mom we talked about this on the episode last week my mom felt guilty over that for years and you know, chase that and, like me, chasing any emotional unavailable men, because that's what I feel like love is, because I wasn't really like I don't want to put somebody through that that's exactly that, and you know I'll give you another argument.
Speaker 2:Jonna, this is going to blow your mind. I have the best parents. I have the best parents. I don't have anything to complain about. My parents and I still had childhood traumas. Now let's talk that up you know, because I didn't.
Speaker 2:I didn't have trauma like you did when I was that young, but I had trauma later which, oh my god, was just unbelievable, from the ages of 17, all the way to 30. It was like on and off, on and off, on and off. It was just life throwing me different curve balls and me having to handle circumstances, handle people, handle a divorce, being in different countries like having an autoimmune. It is just a lot. Even if you have amazing parents, life is hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, and so personally, I have to. That's why I think women are choosing that yeah that's what I think.
Speaker 2:That's one of the main reasons, and I think this is something that I hear again not naming names at all with my friends, but I hear from so many best friends, close friends, that they just don't feel supported by their partner. They just aren't getting that support at all.
Speaker 2:They are promised that they're going to be given that support. The excitement is there, the curiosity is there and all that, but when it comes to it, when it comes to waking up in the middle of the night and feeding or taking them to school and rolling them in classes after school activities, you making money ain't enough, boo, like you got a bit, and that's just not there. When I see and I'm not trying to blame men, no, no, no Are incredible dads, Pretty sure that are incredible hands on dads. As you may listen to this, I'm sure you'll find examples, but I am just talking about the reality and the majority of what women are facing.
Speaker 1:Right. Like I have several guy friends that are amazing dads like amazing dads wouldn't take anything away from them at all. But at the same time, like I see it with my friends and their children, I think that even though society has advanced in so many ways, we're still stuck in a mindset that women stay home with the children and men go to work and that's all fine and good. However, in this day and economy, I don't know what family, other than very rich families, can afford to do that without two incomes coming in. And so if two incomes are coming in and the mom has to work 40 hours, 40 plus hours a week and then come back and make lunches, make dinner, clean the house, like it is a lot. It's like I've even heard women be like oh, I'm just a stay at home mom, and I'm like just a stay at home.
Speaker 2:That is a full time job. I never understand when people say that I anytime. Even if a client says that I'm just a stay at home, momhome, mom, I'll be like, no, no, no, you are a stay-at-home mom and that is a career.
Speaker 1:That is a full-time job you're doing a full-time job without any payment in return exactly, exactly any payment yeah, imagine if they hired a nanny to do all that.
Speaker 2:They would be paying four to five thousand dollars by preparing meals and a chef and a maid like how much would you be paying right people to do everything that a mom does?
Speaker 1:right and so, like, like you said, it's not all men like I know that there are single dads out there doing it all and I think that, like, when I talk to dads or that are like maybe they're divorced and they have their kids, and I've talked to them like, and they're doing it all, like they do have that appreciation that they may not once have had in the marriage. Not saying that they didn't do it in the marriage, I'm just saying, like there is a difference and I know, like they say, like you know the the, which we obviously don't have experience with. That um, what am I trying to say? The mother, um, the maternal instinct, I guess, um, but it is just different. It is different what society places on women versus a man within a relationship and kids.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely 1000%. Like my best friend would happily leave the kids with me and I had a lot of time to like watch her kids. But again, after watching them, it's an amazing experience. And then I want to give them back, right, right, right. You know I love them to death, but you know it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:The wiring is different for me, I guess I literally went to my friend's house Was it yesterday, it was yesterday or the day before to take her daughter a cupcake for her birthday. And one six and the other is two. Well, the two year old is pick me up, me up, pick me up, pick me up. So I'm picking her up, throwing her in there. You know stuff like that. Five minutes, my arms are tired. I'm like I'm tired, I'm tired. She's like do it again, do it again. And I was like how do you do this? I was like, how do you keep the bitter taint? I was like, because I can't sit here, do this for eight hours on end.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, that's so true and you know there's so much burnout that comes with it and I feel like the mom burnout is so real, mom depression is so real. I work with so many moms and they tell me things that they feel like they're never allowed to say it out loud. Yeah, they say exhausted, they say they love their, they love their kid, but they also love their sleep and sometimes it's so frustrating and they take it out on their kids and you know how can you blame them when they're doing the job of five people?
Speaker 1:And that's why I'm glad we're doing this podcast, because we may get some negative feedback on it, and that is completely fine. I'm fine with that. But at the same time, I think we're giving women who have children the autonomy and the right to say out loud sometimes I hate it.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I hate it. Sometimes I'm exhausted. Sometimes I hate it. Sometimes I'm exhausted. Sometimes I just want to have a full meal without being interrupted five times, or go to the bathroom or take a shower, exactly, and you know it's so interesting. My best friend does this and I love her to death for doing this. She validates my child-free choices whenever she gets an opportunity. She'll be like okay, by the way, my youngest wanted braces and this is what it costs.
Speaker 1:In case you're ever confused about it, I'll be like keep them coming because yeah Well, my friend will send me memes all the time that says things like must be nice to be child free over there, and it'll have like a crazy like meme or something and I'll be like but also there's also sadness to it, right, like to be completely honest, sometimes like it is lonely. I don't have a partner, I don't have children. I work with geriatric patients in assisted living facilities and I see some of them without children. I'm like this is where I'm going to be. I ain't got no kids to take care of me.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, but you know I'm going to play devil's advocate and also say because this is again so many people have talked to me about this and I've thought about it so hard people having kids so that you want somebody to take care of you I personally think that's like really selfish yeah, no, yeah, that's your only reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure it's like you.
Speaker 2:I had this huge argument with my friend I want to say a male friend a few months ago on the phone and he was like this is why I want to have kids. When I get older, somebody will be there for me and this and this, and that I'm like that dude, first of all, love you as a friend and all, but this is very selfish. And then he was like why is that selfish? I'm going to take care of my dad, I'm going to do that for my dad. But I said, yeah, but you are doing it out of your free will. You are doing it from the love of your heart and the kindness of your heart. Your dad has never told you to take care of him. I know that and he was like you're right. But I said this is different. You're expecting your child, that child, to take care of you and it was.
Speaker 1:It was like a huge discussion that we know and I know every time I say that to you you'll go. That is not guaranteed and I'm like, well, you got a point. They might hate me.
Speaker 2:You know, it's never guaranteed Like for me. I'm the only child for my parents and my parents have never once told me we want you to come back to India, we want you to take care of us, we want you to do this. They have never. Maybe they've thought about it in their minds, but they've never put that kind of pressure on me. Now do I want to do it, abso-fucking-lutely. I am going to do it. I know that I'm going to do it. It's not right now, but I think expecting that from somebody and having children for those six, it's, it's just. I just think that that's so. That's so wrong on so many levels Right now.
Speaker 1:Like we always do, we're going to go back to the statistics. We got off on a little tangent there. So another statistic was saying that women under 50, which that was just an odd statement when I looked this up because I'm like, well, that is childbearing age, so like we're not talking about 50. And anyways, women under 50 are likely to not want kids, and this is by Pew Research Center. So 47% of women under 50 were likely to not want kids in 2023. And then unlikely to ever have children my notes are kind of sucking here Unluckily to ever have children, that was only 37% in 2018. So it was 47% in 2023 and then 37% in 2018. And then 64% of women just do not want children, and 50% also said that.
Speaker 2:So it is obviously higher in the the, which is odd because you would think it would be I know you think it would be vice versa really would think it would be vice versa, because I have actually been around more men that don't want to have kids than more women that don't want to have kids. So that's interesting, that that's the statistics, um, that that's being presented, and again, like we are coming from a place where we've both made personal choices. But again, if I come to it, to this discussion, am I going to miss out on the motherhood experience? Do I sometimes feel like I will miss out on the motherhood experience and will never know how it feels to love and care for another person, another being that much? Absolutely?
Speaker 2:Sometimes I think that, oh, maybe I am missing out, you know, maybe, maybe this is the greatest experience, because I've also talked to mothers and I've asked them hey, if you have to do this, will you do it? And they're like, yeah, I will do it, but this is something I'll do differently and this is something I'll change differently, right, yeah? And sometimes I feel like, oh, yeah, that seems like such a beautiful, rewarding experience, but I think for me personally, the negatives outweigh the positives. So that's like a personal choice. And again for somebody else, they would say you know, this outweigh the negatives for me and I really want to have that motherhood experience.
Speaker 1:Right Now I don't know if this is Guinness or Guinness, because I suck at pronouncing things sometimes, but it says 62% of women who intended to have kids. Half of those were unsure that they would follow through with it Interesting and then with fertility and intention. For the women between ages 20 and 39, it went from an average of 2.3 children in 2012 to an average of 1.8 children in 2023, which I'm sure is a huge drop because women used to have like five to nine children back in the olden days. Yeah, but yeah, most homes were averaging 2.3 children in 2012. And then it was 1.8 children in 2023. I don't ever understand the 0.3 and the 0.8 because, like, how do you have half a, half a human? But anyways, that's the, that's the stats, and then the fertility. So this is where we get into the childless. Fertility rates decreased um um to 1.62 in 2023, and that's the lowest it's been since 1979.
Speaker 2:Wow, and I mean that could be a lot of like processed foods, inflammation, the things we put in our bodies, a lot of environmental factors could. Oh for sure.
Speaker 1:For sure. So I know we mentioned our top what we thought, while women weren't. So there are some top reasons why women don't want children. So number one is women just simply don't want them, and 57% of people were just saying I just simply don't want a child. Number two they're focusing on their aspirations, their career and their interests, and I think that goes back to what we mentioned earlier, like I think that, as society has changed, women have more autonomy in society, so we are taking advantage of that.
Speaker 2:That's right, because we can at this point. So that's our choice right now.
Speaker 1:And then three financial constraints. So we got some stats on that. So children are expensive. Everybody knows that. I'm sure parents are like, yes, they are, and so that's one of the reasons like I said, I mentioned earlier that, the reasons why I didn't want a child because of how expensive they were. And I actually got interested in this because it was random it's probably because my phone heard me, but I was listening to a TikTok from this lady in Britain that was talking about crazy things Americans do and she was talking about how expensive it was just to go to the hospital and deliver your child and she was like how rich are Americans? Because she was basically talking about how our health insurance sucks. So here's some stats on how expensive it is in the US in 2025 of cost of having and raising a child. So one-time cost of having a baby pregnancy, delivery and postpartum care average $18,865, with $2,854 of that typically out of pocket if you're insured.
Speaker 2:Okay, if you're insured. Okay, wow, yeah delivery. I don't know the percentage of uninsured moms versus insured moms, but that's good numbers.
Speaker 1:Delivery costs vary roughly $14,768 for a vaginal birth and around $26,280 for a C-section Whoa, and that's with insurance. I mean, that's the cost of it. Then, of course, depending on your insurance plan, it's going to pay different. So that's the cost of it without insurance and then your insurance plan is going to pick up whatever it picks, depending on your plan. Ongoing annual costs to raise a child national averages, which was adjusted in 2025, adopted USDA inflation adjustments suggest annual cost of about $18,761 per child annually. Wow, lendingtree's 2025 estimate the annual cost has surged to around $30,000, which adds to a staggering $300,000 over 18 years old or sorry, over 18 years, through age 17. Years old or sorry over 18 years through age 17. So from birth to age 17, it would probably cost you $300,000 to raise one child Living in major metro areas.
Speaker 1:this is by smart asset. So, like Boston, cambridge, newton, it's approximately $39,221 per year to raise a child. If you're looking in San Francisco, oakland, fremont, california area, it's approximately $38,981 to raise a child, and then in the top 10 metros it ranges between $30,000 and $39,000 annually. The lowest cost metro area, like places like Alabama, southern States $19,082 annually, and then of that made up of childcare was $8,570 annually, housing was $1,520. Food was $1,993. Medical was $2,615. Transportation was $3,118 and other costs. Snapshot summary. Sorry, that was that was highlighted.
Speaker 1:So geography matters, obviously when you're raising a child. So, like urban areas like Boston or San Francisco are dramatically increased in annual child costs, while regions like Birmingham, alabama, are far more affordable. Childcare is often the biggest chunk and it's rising quickly. More affordable child care is often the biggest chunk and it's rising quickly. Lendingtree noted a 51.8% increase in average annual child care costs from 2023 to 2025. It went from $11,752 to $17,836. And childbirth remains expensive even for insured families, and out of pocket costs can still be substantial. So you got a budget for a child and most households with the economy where it is, even people working two jobs. That's why I'm like I don't know how people do it. I really don't know how people do it, because I know what I was making a couple of years ago and on my salary alone I was doing just enough to save money for retirement and to pay my bills.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:And that was with no kids or nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people have to like scram and somehow they just make it work. And if I look at the numbers, even I don't know Right right.
Speaker 1:So the financial constraints, I can understand a huge thing, especially in the economy. I think that we're getting smarter. Like prior it would be like, oh screw it, we'll figure it out, we'll make it work. But I think at this point, like it's getting harder to just make it work in this economy. Like when your house is like a normal house, when you're talking like, even in the South, like a normal house I live in a three bedroom, two bath house, normal size house, my house now, like in 2025, no-transcript, you know, yeah, yeah. So like when I'm thinking half a million dollar home, I'm thinking like huge houses in the mountains on the side. You know what I'm saying. So I cannot completely understand. That's one of my reasons not saying that I like don't make good money now, but at the end of the day, you don't ever know when a job is going to leave you and then what?
Speaker 2:there's just so much unpredictability. I think for me my reason comes down to things are unpredictable anyway, then why would I bring another human go through this wave of unpredictability? I'm having to regulate myself and figure my own stuff out and, you know, do my business and you know, just be a good human. Right, I do so many things to show up and be a good person and be a good person and be a good human and be a good friend. I just personally don't have the bandwidth or have the, I guess, the courage to bring another human into this unpredictable territory which is called life.
Speaker 1:Well, I have one that I know like I have really bad. Well, it's not really bad, it's undiagnosed OCD. It's not really bad, but itiagnosed OCD it's not really bad. But it gets worse when my anxiety is worse and I, when I used to watch my nieces and nephews, like I could picture things. I'd be like they're gonna trip and fall and bust their head on that curb and then, and then what do I do? And then what do I do? Like I have these like thoughts of like my my aunt calls it catastrophic thinking and like it's it's probably not gonna happen. But like I worry so much, like when I would have to babysit them, I would just worry constantly like what if they swallow that lego and they choke my sister's? Like what about? What am I gonna do? My sister's gonna kill me, you know that's all.
Speaker 2:That's almost like survival thinking. It's thinking for survival, brain kicking in, you know yeah, but going back to the top reasons, um.
Speaker 1:So number three was financial constraints. Number four environment and future. Future concerns, which you touched on a little bit, like climate change. Like I tell this to my friends and my friend my friend had a baby, I think he he'll be a year old soon and I said this probably when he was six months old. I was like are you not worried about the climate? And like is your child even going to get to grow up? She was like jonna. I was like I'm serious, serious. Like like I I think in several years that our houses will not, like our air conditioners are not going to be able to keep up with this heat. I mean, I pray that doesn't happen. But like we need to start figuring out some kind of energy grid, because we keep getting emails from you know utility companies like try not to run heavy equipment, like we don't have enough energy. And I'm just like what are we? Okay, but are we working on that?
Speaker 2:What are we? What are we actually going to do? What are the tangible changes where we're implementing today to make sure that doesn't happen tomorrow? These are those are also my concerns, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, number five was desire for personal freedom. That's what I touched on, like I want to be able to go where I want to go when I want to go.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I think. For me that's huge. I've always valued freedom from a young age and that's just not changed. That's just never changed for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, number six lack of societal and workplace support, which is completely true, like maternity leave in the US is minimum four to six weeks, depending on your company's policy and plans.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in Germany it's six months. How does that happen in the States? How do they expect you to bounce back so much?
Speaker 1:And I think, paternity leave, like some companies don't even offer it. And then if they do offer it, they may get one to two weeks. And let's think about that for a second. If your partner had a C-section, where they just cut through all the abdominal wall, all the abdominal muscles, and if you've ever had an abdominal surgery and you're trying to get up, you know that you use your abs for everything to get out of the bed, to get out of a chair, to stand up. And now you rush me out of the hospital chair to stand up. And now you, you rushed me out of the hospital, you send me home where I need to heal, which we all know.
Speaker 1:It takes at least at minimum six weeks to heal from a surgery. And what's the first thing? If you have an orthopedic surgery, that the ortho doctor does go to physical therapy. But in America do we send people to pelvic floor therapy to help strengthen their pelvic floor so that they can get up and that they're not having diastasis recti and all this other complications from just giving birth? No, we don't, because you have to pay for that out of pocket, because insurance doesn't cover it. So now you have all this, but send me home with a newborn, with my stomach cut open and no husband to help me. But I'm not supposed to lift, I'm not supposed to get you know what I'm saying. Go backwards.
Speaker 2:Like but I'm not supposed to lift, I'm not supposed to get, you know what I'm saying. Go backwards, like how does one make that work?
Speaker 1:Exactly, Exactly, and it's just like. It makes me so sad that we we've come so far to really, if you think about it, not come so far.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, we've come so far in terms of technology and AI, but what about common sense?
Speaker 1:people Like how, how do you do that? But other countries, countries, do that, like other countries like offer these things and it's like we're supposed to be quote unquote one of the best countries in the world but we can't even support what. I'm not gonna say that, that'll be too controversial. That's for another number seven people have top reasons of not having children past trauma or family experiences, which we kind of touched on. Number eight physical and mental concerns or health concerns, like if you have a genetic disorder that you're afraid to pass down to a child. Number nine stigma or social pressure to have a child. And then my favorite that I want to get into and talk about is child free is not anti-child.
Speaker 2:Oh, that is such a big one, because when I see a baby and the baby is cute and smiling all I want to do is squish it and carry it and play with it and spend time with it, like I love children, yeah same. They are the most fascinating people. They are so open, they are raw, they're innocent.
Speaker 1:I love how honest they are.
Speaker 2:Love, how honest they are, their creativity is still magical to me every day. It's just. It blows my mind on how expansive their hearts are, how easily they're able to forgive. I think they're just great human beings. I think they're great people you know, and so that that obviously means I love them.
Speaker 1:you know like them, so that that's a very good point that you brought up and I just, and so, like me and my my best friend Lori, we Snapchat. Yes, guys, I said I was almost 40. We still Snapchat, but I think it's okay for women to Snapchat Maybe not men so much. I know it's a double standard, but it is what it is and I Snapchat with my friend Lori, mostly because she lives in Tennessee and we don't get to see each other. So it's almost like we're video chatting when we have time and her daughter, chloe, cracks me up, like cracks me up, like she'll, she'll go, can you call Jonna? And calling Jonna is Snapchatting and so she'll Snapchat me and like for the longest time I couldn't understand what she was saying and like. Her speech is slowly getting better, but now she does TikTok videos where she's like cooking and you've got to follow her. So I also love children. It's just the fact that I don't want to take them home and take care of them.
Speaker 2:That's exactly, and I've told this to so many of my close friends, best friends. I will say you can leave them here for several days, go on your vacation, have fun. 10 days, 20 days, you can leave them here, no problem, I will take care. But that's easy for me to say, because it's not permanent.
Speaker 1:Well then people ask me because I'm, you know, I'm dating, I'm in the dating world, or whatever. They're like, well, what if a guy has kids? I was like that's not a deal breaker for me. I'm not saying that I don't want children, that didn't come from me, that's exactly right. Like I'm, like I'm fine with everybody else's kids. It's just that I personally, something in me, didn't personally want to deliver a child, you know, and I think that's okay. I think that I mean, somebody's got to stop the overpopulation of the earth, right, why not me? I'm just saying like, if we're so overpopulated and they're worried about where we're going to have like people living instead of trying to find places on Mars, I'll just contribute to the. You know one less overpopulation over here.
Speaker 2:And you know something that I want to touch base on really quickly for the societal point, I feel like things have evolved a lot more in a worldly level. For sure, I'm seeing a big shift. And you know something that I want to touch base on really quickly for the societal point, I feel like things have evolved a lot more in a worldly level. For sure, I'm seeing a big shift, especially in the country that I come from, which is I'm from India, born and raised right.
Speaker 2:Every time I used to go back when I was in my 20s, I would get questioned by nosy relatives and extended family and they'll be like when is the good news? Like when are you going to tell us the good news? And when? When is this happening, not happening? And you know that has shifted a lot now. It has Back. These days they don't ask that. They don't ask even my other friends that have kids. It's not, I mean, I'm not saying they never ask, but it's not as much as it used to be. And that's, I think, good, because I think the world is catching up to this. Okay, some people don't have children and it could be various reasons. It could be health, it could be personal, but let's not keep poking at that, let's not keep interfering with that. So I'm seeing that change in a collective way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was about to say I don't think it's because we're choosing to not have children. I think it's because of how much infertility is on the rise.
Speaker 2:So it's a very touchy subject to ask a female like when are you going to have a child, when you don't know how long they have been trying another thing is, you don't know, financially they're able to have the bandwidth to support another child you don't know and has health issues, or the wife has health issues. There's so many reasons hidden which you can't see just when you see them on social media or when you see them at an event. You just don't. They seem good and they seem happy, but you don't know what happens behind closed doors. And I think people are starting to realize that because it's starting to happen behind their closed doors, right right daughters, it's starting to happen behind their closed doors, right right Daughters, it's starting to happen to their sisters and their nieces. And so I feel like, because reality is hitting so hard in terms of infertility, like you said, and the health reasons growing insanely in all parts of the world, I think people are starting to become more respectful of boundaries.
Speaker 1:For sure I agree, and it's funny that you said that when you went back to India that would, because when I so I'm from a very small town and like to me where I live is like what's becoming a bigger city. But when I would go home, like especially in my 20s, it was like when are you going to be married? When are you going to have kids? And I was like I'm literally a freshman in college. What are you talking about? Like what? But at the same time, like all my friends were getting married and you know I was very behind the game because I moved away from a small town and that's just what it was.
Speaker 2:You know, that's just what it was Exactly. And again, guys like I again, this is my personal values. I'm not saying you have to take or leave anything from this. I think that people that genuinely want to have children, that love children, that want the journey, that want the experience, have fun, Go, try and have kids and enjoy your life, be a part of that journey, fulfill your purpose. But I think people that are on the fence should be allowed to say that, hey, I'm on the fence and I don't know, and out to say that, hey, I'm on the fence and I don't know, and that's okay. You don't have to always have an answer. There was many years in between when I was on the fence and, thank God, nobody forced me to say you should either be a yes or you should be a no. You can sometimes be confused and evaluate all your options.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also don't add us if you see us with a child in two years, because you never know where life's going to take you on a journey. And then, if we do have kids, they can listen to this podcast and go uh-huh, uh-huh, what, yeah? So don't add us, because people are allowed to change their minds they're allowed to change their minds.
Speaker 2:I mean, my parents decided they didn't want to have kids in the beginning and then they changed their minds.
Speaker 1:So you know, I've had friends, friends that they didn't want children and then, like it was, you know, like obviously they weren't using protection and it happened. And then they were like you know what, I did not want kids. But I'm so glad it happened to me because I did not know I could love someone this much or, you know, whatever the case may be. But like I've had friends where they were like, yeah, I didn't want kids, and then now here I am and I love being a mom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. You know, the one thing which I think we highlighted over and over again in this episode is that life is unpredictable. People are unpredictable. We change our minds, we change it back, we change it again, and when somebody says this, my choice or I'm on the fence, just you know, our only takeaway or giveaway in this podcast will be just, be okay with that. Just it's okay for people to be confused, it's okay for somebody to have a completely different opinion from yours and completely different belief systems, and I think the more we can hold space for everyone and their different choices, I feel like the more we're coming in unity, we're growing together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, agreed. Well, I think this is a great topic, so thank you for doing this with me.
Speaker 2:As always, guys, until next time and we will catch you on the next one. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:Bye you.
