Emotional Immaturity vs Manipulation: How to Tell, What to Do, and When to Walk Away w/ Meenu

#193: Ever felt crazy for speaking up—then wondered if you were actually being managed? We go straight at the blurry line between emotional immaturity and manipulation, mapping the real signals that separate missing skills from a need for control. With honesty and a lot of lived experience, we unpack how anxiety, attachment styles, and poor regulation can fuel reactions that hurt, and how tactics like gaslighting, love bombing, and guilt hooks keep you doubting yourself.

We share language that works under pressure—the “I feel/When you/What I need” framework—and explain why timing and tone matter when emotions run hot. You’ll hear how to read the response: curiosity and accountability signal emotional immaturity with room to grow; while, denial, deflection, and inconsistent follow-through point to manipulation. We also challenge the myth that love is enough, explore the double standards of “situationship” control without commitment, and walk through when to set firmer boundaries, document patterns, or make the hard choice to leave.

If you’re ready to protect your peace, start taking notes on behavior, and rebuild trust in your own perception, this conversation gives you a grounded roadmap. You’ll learn how to anchor in your values, separate affection from access, and become harder to move with shame or urgency. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs clarity, and leave a review telling us the sign that clicked for you—what pattern are you done ignoring?

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• 17:01 (Cont.) Emotional Immaturity vs Manipulation: How to Tell, What to Do, and When to Walk Away w/ Meenu

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

What is up everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Babble's Nonsense podcast and menu is on today from Transcend into Wellness Podcast. Today we're diving into something that comes up in almost every relationship at some point, whether that be romantic, platonic, or even family members. And that's the difference between emotional immaturity and manipulation. They often get confused, but they're not the same thing. Emotional immaturity looks like avoidance, shutting down, or not having the tools to handle feelings, while manipulation looks like twisting reality, using guilt, or making you question yourself. One comes from a lack of skills, the other comes from the need of control. We're going to unpack how to tell the difference, what signs to look for, and most importantly, how to respond. Because whether you're dealing with an immature partner who can grow or someone who is deliberately manipulating you, your response really does matter. We will also share some quick fire scenarios at the end of the podcast so that you can start spotting the difference in real life. And hopefully by the end of this episode, you'll know how to protect your peace, check your own responses, and walk away from confusion with clarity. And as always, guys, this is not intended to give you advice. This is just our own stories that we are sharing and questions that I have for many of you. So if you are into this type of topic, take a lesson. Babbles nonsense. I have so many questions. Today we are going to talk about how to spot the difference, or can you spot the difference between manipulation and emotional immaturity? Because honestly, the outcome to me is the same at the end of it all.

SPEAKER_03: 2:01

I mean, the end of it all, we're screwed. Long story short, but the end of it all, people suffer. Like when people other people don't do the inner work and other people don't have self-awareness, the rest of the population suffers. The end.

SPEAKER_00: 2:13

You don't even have to, you don't even have to listen to the rest of the podcast. There's there's there it is. The end. Turn it off. I'm just kidding, don't turn it off. But yeah, I wanted to talk about this because, you know, as I've gotten older, the more therapy I go to, the more life coaching I do, the more, you know, obviously I'm growing as a person. I used to be a person that was so afraid of change. Like even in like life, like it would just freak me out. Like I don't move furniture around in my house. And I was so afraid to change who I was. But the older I get and the more like things happen, whether that be in relationships or friendships, I'm like, you know what? I don't want to be the same person I am today in five years. I want to be better than I was. Like, I obviously don't want to go backwards, but I want to be better than I was, you know. And if I'm not doing that, I'm not growing. I don't want to be stuck in an emotional, immature place myself. So I wanted to have this conversation with you.

SPEAKER_03: 3:06

Yeah. And honestly, kudos to you for recognizing that. And also kudos to you for wanting to change because it takes a lot of guts to do that. And it's very scary. Any any type of change for a person like you that likes predictability, that likes certainty and things like that, it's it's very hard to change. And it takes a lot to even say, I want to change. So I think you're already at the first step. So you're already there.

SPEAKER_00: 3:29

But guys, that does not mean that it, like she said, it's not easy. So, like, just to give some background before we start, like, if you don't know me and you're listening to this podcast, like I have high anxiety most of the time. And I just overthink everything on a day-to-day basis, which you know, that's something Me New has helped me a lot with because you know, overthinking, she has let me know is like obviously you're staying in the future, you're not like allowing yourself to live in the present by overthinking everything and you're just telling yourself stories that haven't even happened.

unknown: 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 4:00

So like trying to change, you know, your way out of that is definitely hard, but it's something I, you know, I'm obviously gonna work out probably till the day I die because it's just ingrained in us subconsciously and all that other jazz. But to get on to this topic, can you tell us or explain to us the difference between what emotional immaturity is and what manipulation is? And I guess we should say, like, this could be in any type of relationship, whether that be a romantic friendship, um, parent, sibling, whatever relationship.

SPEAKER_03: 4:31

Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, there's so much to talk about here because I feel like y'all need to take notes. I'm kidding. I feel like when you've when you're in your mid-30s, like me and Jana, having so much experience with so many different types of people, having been in so many relationships, you are forced to learn what these things are so you can better see for yourself and protect yourself and choose with disarmament when you're moving on, whether it's a friend or a romantic partner, whatever it is. So I think this episode is going to be so useful, whether you're in your 40s and single or married, or you're struggling in your friend group and wanting to know who's toxic, or you're struggling in your relationship or partnership, whatever the situation is, I think this information we're about to talk about is so significant because obviously all this touches on self-awareness and mental health. So emotional immaturity is generally when a person struggles to either identify, process, or regulate their emotions in a healthy way and in an age-appropriate way, right? Some of the signs of emotional immaturity would be like poor emotional regulation. So emotional regulation is the ability to process anxiety, the ability to process stress, the ability to process trauma. So that doesn't mean the absence of anxiety, absence of stress. We're not talking about not having any of these things, but when you have these things, how are you able to move through that? So that's the that is emotional regulation, the concept of doing it.

SPEAKER_00: 6:05

Would you say, for an example of that, like I've been seeing a lot on TikTok lately, like um the attachment styles, like avoided attachment, anxious attachment, like those type things where you can't regulate those attachments. Like, like, for example, like an avoidant, they they yeah, like an avoidant attachment, you know, they can't handle their feelings, so they just run. Where in an anxious attachment, like they can't handle their emotions, so they bug and they plead and they beg and they chase.

SPEAKER_03: 6:33

And they wanna and they chase and they want to communicate desperately because yeah, all that, whatever you're saying, even the attachment styles, it's actually if you look at it in the emotion spectrum, because I my specialty is like working with human emotions. So when you look at it in the emotion spectrum, it's all about you not being able to regulate your emotions, right?

SPEAKER_00: 6:54

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03: 6:54

So you're either running or you're chasing or you're avoiding. So you're taking one of those three, right? So that's all about, you know, and it can stem from childhood, right? It could be maybe your parents were avoidant, your dad was avoidant, your mom was avoidant, or one of them was anxious. Like you never know what triggers and what sets you off to either be an anxious or avoidant or fearful. But some of the, like I said, signs are like black and white thinking, um, avoiding responsibility, not knowing how to process your feelings, and then very defensive and reactive, like when somebody gives you feedback or when someone gives you constructive criticism and you are very quick to react and you're not just pausing and and staying and listening to them. Your body can handle it. Like that's a classic sign of like emotional dysregulation. And then generally, when people are very controlling or when you are very controlling, you only want a certain outcome, you're not gonna accept anything else that that shows like lack of tools because you don't have the tools to accept other outcomes, which is emotional dysregulation, and then of course, being very defensive is also emotional dysregulation. So, emotional immaturity is more like how do I say it? It's like emotional immaturity is more childlike, right? Because it's immaturity, but manipulation is more skill-based.

SPEAKER_00: 8:19

Okay, right. That I mean, it makes sense because you have to kind of know what you're doing, and that's where I think it comes it becomes difficult to just to discern between the two because sometimes like immaturity, like you feel like when someone's older and they are having those immature behaviors, you're like, you have to know what you're doing, right?

SPEAKER_03: 8:38

Yeah, I think you would be really, really shocked. Like, you would be really shocked. One of my closest friends was dating someone, you know, much older than her, like well into his 40s, and he could not regulate himself. He could not, and he had a great job. Like, he could not, for the life of him, regulate his feelings. So he would come to her, reach out to her constantly to regulate him, right? So it that's why it's emotional immaturity because it's it's it's immature, it's not age appropriate. These things happen when you're 60, 70, 80, 20. It doesn't matter how old you are, like if you don't know and understand how to regulate, you're gonna have that problem for the rest of your life, right? So that's again a sign of immaturity. We can say it's a lack of information, lack of tools. So for people that are emotionally immature, there is still so much room to learn and grow. And honestly, there is still hope because they're still immature, which means you can become mature, like you can learn how to do these things. However, manipulation is a whole other ball game. Like people that are manipulative manipulative, most of the times know that they are manipulative in order to get a desired outcome that they prefer in the presence of hurting other people. Like it's so they don't mind at the cost of hurting other people's feelings or walking over them or negating their experience. They still want to get what they want. So manipulation is more like cunning and cruel, honestly, than emotional immaturity. So manipulation signs are how do you spot them? Is like they'll take something that you say and they'll twist your own words. So that's a classic sign of manipulation. They play victim a lot with manipulation because they can't take accountability, they they can't say, I am the problem. So they say, Oh, poor me, this is happening to me. This is happening, what do I do? Like, I can't help this, this is my life. No, you can literally wake up tomorrow and choose to like have a different life, you know, and have different life. Like, you can do that. They use guilt or shame often to manipulate a situation into their will. Jana's making faces, you guys. Like, this is not this is not video.

SPEAKER_00: 10:55

No, it's we're gonna have to eventually one day do video podcasts and just upload our Zooms because like y'all have to understand, like, when we do these podcasts, we're not we don't talk beforehand at all. I have my questions for her, she has her notes because all we do is say, here's the topic we're gonna cover. So this is almost like a therapy session for me when she's talking, and I'm almost like over here going, Yeah, yeah, uh-huh. Check, check, makes sense.

SPEAKER_03: 11:22

Okay, yeah, move on. It's also inconsistent words and actions. So sometimes people make fake promises. They'll say, I'm gonna do this. You watch, I'm gonna change, I'm gonna be better for you, and things like that. But then they start and then they don't continue. There's no consistency. So that's because they want to keep you and they want to get you, so their actions and words never match, right? And then this is a classic one with manipulation. They're gaslighting you, they gaslight you. So if you don't know what gaslighting means, it means invalidating your experience of a situation or trauma. So if you're saying, hey, this happened and this really hurt my feelings, you said this on Friday. I wish you hadn't said that. Gaslighting, a gas person that gaslights you would be like, no, no, no, you're too sensitive, you're overthinking it. I didn't say it like that. I didn't mean it like that. Instead of actually saying, I'm sorry, you know, I probably messed up. I shouldn't have used that tone, I should have used a different tone. You see, that's accountability. So Right.

SPEAKER_00: 12:23

And then, guys, just so you know, like there's a lot of buzzwords like narcissism and gaslighting, and we're not talking about like everybody, like, no one has to agree with you. What she's saying is like, like, you don't like let's say for let's take the example, someone, you know, says something to you and hurt your feelings on Friday. Even if if you truly don't believe you hurt someone's feelings, it's still okay to acknowledge the person and go, I, you know, that was not my intention. If I did hurt your feelings, that was never my intention. Let me try to reword it or something like that. Like it's still taking accountability, even if you still don't feel you did something wrong, you don't have to put the other person down for their feelings because perception is everything, perception is real. And if someone perceives something, and it happens to me quite a bit, and I was I'll take accountability for that. Like I'm a very direct person and it comes across as quote unquote rude or blunt a lot. And so I have to backtrack a lot and say, I am so sorry, I did not mean it the way it came out. You know, this is what I actually meant, and then and then we're all good, but I will never, well, I won't say I'll never, but I I try my best not to go up to someone and go, Well, you're just gonna have to learn how to take me. That's just how I am, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 13:30

I mean, that's entitlement, you know. Like, and we we are not like I mean, I'm not entitled. I know you're not entitled, and we all, even though we're doing the self-work and we're growing and learning, we also make mistakes. Sometimes I may say something that could be snappy to someone or too blunt for someone else, like because they're used to some another level of communication, and I'm used to being like you said, I'm also pretty honest and blunt. So we're we're used to that. So we're pretty thick skinned when it comes to that, but other people may not be, and that doesn't mean there is something wrong with them, it's just that they are exposed to something different and we're exposed to something different. So, like you said, like gaslighting is it would be like completely invalidating your feelings, your experience, right? Another classic sign of manipulation is love bombing and withdrawal. So when somebody wants something from you, they tend to be very loving, they tend to show up, they give you gifts, they give you time, they give you energy. And then once they get you or get you to do something that they wanted you to do, then they withdraw because that's a sign of manipulation, because they want you to believe that, oh, I love you, I'm here for you. But actually, in reality, they're not that person and they can never back that up consistently.

SPEAKER_00: 14:42

Something I was reading about that, where even if it's not love bombing and someone like gives you a lot of attention or affection or something, and then their punishment is to withdraw that um affection or you know, love for you. Like, and again, it's so hard to discern. Like, I want to believe the best in people, and I want to believe that someone's not sitting there thinking, and maybe they're not thinking that they're trying to be manipulative, but they're they've just done this behavior so long that it's just secondhand nature. So it's not maybe they're not sitting there plotting on the couch, going, How can I get this person to do what I want them to do? Maybe it's just so ingrained in them, but they're just a manipulative behavior. And like, how do you uh we'll get there? Okay, continue.

SPEAKER_03: 15:30

Yeah, no, there's so much to talk about this, right? And then, like, again, another point is they avoid accountability. Like, so people that know that they're manipulative. Again, there's conscious manipulation, there's unconscious manipulations. It's what we're gonna talk about afterwards. But conscious manipulators, this the traits that I listed, they are conscious manipulators. Okay, they acquire accountability, they love bomb you, they withdraw from you because they've gotten what they want, they play victim, they use guilt, they use shame. And those are people that are saying, okay, I have a desired outcome, so this is the way I want to show up to get what I want. So consciously, they're playing chess with you. Okay, right. However, this is the problem. Now I'm telling you this. Now you you're aware of all this and these traits, right? This is the sad part. Okay. The sad part is if you are not a manipulator, you will not recognize manipulation.

SPEAKER_00: 16:54

Right. Because you, like I just said, like you don't want to sit there, like, even when you went, even when we talk about it, I'm sitting here thinking about past experiences, and I want to go, I don't want to believe someone sat there consciously and was like, this is what I'm going to do to get her to do XYZ. Like, I don't want to believe that, even if it is true.

SPEAKER_03: 17:13

Right. And you know that they justify it. So the manipulators, the way they justify it is they'll say, Well, I love you and I want the best for both of us. That's why I did it. But that does that's not healthy, though. That's control, though, right? I mean, you're not being authentic, you're you're kind of playing chess to get what you want. So you can you can say, Well, I didn't, I didn't, uh, I didn't mean to stab you. That was not my intention, like, but you still did, and it's still hard, and there's still blood. So Right.

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

So, what about the unconscious manipulator? How do you I mean, is that where you maybe picked it up in childhood, and then that's just kind of the behavior that you've had, and maybe you truly don't recognize that you're manipulating someone? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 17:55

So, unconscious manipulation can come from from your parents most of the times. Like if your mom says, you know, oh, this makes me really sad, or she passive aggressively becomes sad when you don't show up in a certain way, and she shuts you down when you're not a certain way, or you don't get certain grades, instead of actually communicating with you and telling you that, hey, I want you to get good grades, but she shuts down and she withdraws. So then you start learning, you're like, Oh, okay, so if mom withdraws, then I have to do this. Okay. So withdrawal means I have to do this. So then you start weaponizing and using that in your relationships in adulthood, like withdrawing from your partner to get what you want. You see what I'm trying to say? Because that was exposed so much to you when you were growing up, and nobody told you that that is toxic. Nobody told you that's wrong. Nobody told you, but when you're growing up, you're repeating these behaviors in your relationships and friendships, and people are like, oh my God, you're you're manipulating me. You're you're toxic and this and that. And then you're if you recognize that, you can always change, right? That that is something that I always believe. Like, no matter how toxic somebody is, a narcissist, many manipulate manipulator. Like, I feel like if you recognize that and you feel icked out by your own behavior and you want to change, you can change. The problem is a lot of people don't want to change, right? A lot of people are very much in their comfort with their behaviors because guess what?

SPEAKER_00: 19:29

The problem is, it has gotten them other things, and it works for them, and they don't see a problem with it when it's getting them what they want.

SPEAKER_03: 19:37

No, yeah, because it's gotten them a lot of things, yeah. You know, maybe it's gotten them significance, it's gotten them sympathy, it's gotten them friendships, maybe it even got them a job. You know, a lot of people manipulate in job interviews, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:49

You know, they I guess I just can't relate. And I'm not gonna say I've never unconsciously manipulated because I don't know, I don't I don't feel like I have, but I guess I can't relate in the sense of like if I'm hurting someone that I really care about, like I don't see how I can't look inward and go, even in the moment, if I don't understand it, like why I can't self-reflect and be like, why is why is that person hurting? Like, talk to a friend, talk to a therapist, talk to a coach, and be like, this is the situation. Like, can you point out some things that like that I'm not seeing that maybe I hurt someone else or something like that? You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 20:23

Yeah, I think that's also because like Jonna, you're also very self-aware. And not only are you self-aware, you're also pretty self-critical. You know, and you a lot, like you you really reflect a lot and you really think about okay, what have I done wrong, or maybe I shouldn't have said this. You in fact over apologize, and I've told you that many times, like not to do that. Like, you don't have to apologize, you don't have to over overstate things because you really, really your your heart is really that pure, and you don't want to intentionally hurt anyone, right? With you so many times, and you sometimes overdo your apology just so that you're not you know hurting someone.

SPEAKER_00: 21:03

I know, I know it's a it's that that I gotta work on. That I gotta work on. I know.

SPEAKER_03: 21:08

So to question, right? To answer, to go into it, it it really you can learn this from anyone. You you can learn it from a parent, you can learn it from a grandparent. And if if you see somebody getting what they want and they're using manipulation to get what they want, and you're seeing that it's working and you're seeing that it's successful, then sometimes you start thinking, like, maybe I should just do that, maybe I should just use that, maybe it's not so bad. And then that translates into so many areas, and then that becomes a problem because the problem is when you're manipulating, you're not authentic. So you lose a sense of who you really are, and you lose a sense of source within you because you're trying to get what you want. You're so attached to the outcome, you've forgotten your fundamental character in your nature.

SPEAKER_00: 21:55

Yeah. No, I agree with that. I agree with that a lot. Um, are all manipulative behaviors intentional, or can um they sometimes stem from that emotional immaturity where they're not fully aware? Or maybe it's like they have that avoidant behavior, you know, because there's so many different, like I've been trying to like study attachment styles, and gosh, there's so many. There's like fearful avoidant, um dismissive avoidant. Um, and then so it's like you we all have these attachment styles ingrained in us from childhood that are subconscious that we probably don't even recognize what they are or what they're doing until you study them. And then so would you say that all like because they kind of cross over.

SPEAKER_03: 22:37

Not all are not all are intentional to answer your question. Okay, a lot of people, some people don't even know that they're doing this.

SPEAKER_00: 22:44

Right. That's why I was like, because I know that I have I lean more towards an anxious attachment style. I actually took a quiz and you'll laugh at this, maybe you won't. I actually took a quiz because I was like learning about them, and it said that I had a secure attachment style. And I was like, what? What me? Secure? Okay, but then it said that you can have secondary attachment styles when you're triggered. So if you're not in the right relationship, then you're second like you're you're acting like whatever you would have. Like, so in my childhood, it would be an anxious attachment. I'm actually I when I read about them, I lean between anxious and avoidant.

SPEAKER_03: 23:20

That's so funny because I also lean, so I'm naturally very secure, but I have been with partners, and some of them have triggered anxious attachment styles, and some of them have triggered avoidant. Isn't that we're the same person? Yeah, even even with when you're with different people, they can trigger different attachment styles within you. Yeah. And again, like you're you may not be consciously aware when you're being triggered, but that can definitely happen.

SPEAKER_00: 23:48

And why is it so important for us to? I know we're not talking about attachment styles, that's a whole nother podcast, but why is it so important for us to know which one we're dealing with, whether it be manipulation or emotional immaturity?

SPEAKER_03: 24:01

I think it's important because if you especially want that relationship with that somebody to work, if you want that friendship to work, if you want that marriage to work, you have to be able to communicate. And how are you going to communicate if you don't know whether they're being emotionally mature or they're straight up manipulating you? Like you don't know. How will you communicate that? You can't tell a person that's completely emotionally immature and not manipulative at all. Let's say they don't have any of the manipulate manipulative tastes, they're just immature. You can't go and tell them you're manipulative. It doesn't kind of fit the description, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00: 24:42

And if so, if so, if they're if people can unconsciously manipulate you, then how do you discern between someone just being scared of their feelings, which is emotional immaturity, and then someone who's manipulating you if they're unconsciously doing it? Like, how do you determine that if they're trying to not take accountability in a situation in a relationship?

SPEAKER_03: 25:01

I think you have to talk about it. I think I always like to say I feel statements. And whenever I'm confronting someone, I mean, take it or leave it, guys. This is what's worked really well for me. Whenever you say, you did this, you said that, you did that, you're automatically going to be met with defense, even if that person loves you, cares for you, because uh the human nature is to protect themselves, right? So automatically they're gonna defend in order to protect themselves when they're being attacked or when there is an accusation, right? So whenever you're confronting somebody and you don't know what it is, you don't know whether it's emotional manipulation or emotional maturity, you always say, Hey, I feel when we have this conversation, you were saying this and you're behaving this way, but your actions are not matching your words. You said you would do this, but you didn't do that. Whatever the context is, I feel like this is happening.

SPEAKER_00: 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 25:56

And when a person is emotionally immature, their response is gonna be like, Oh my God, I didn't know that this was happening. I didn't know I was doing this, I didn't know it came across this way. And depending on how self-aware they are and how receptive they are, they're either gonna take the feedback and work on it, or they're gonna be like, this is gonna take time for me to work on, I have to go to therapy, whatever it is. But manipulation, when you confront them, they're going to gaslight you, they're gonna twist your words and they're gonna say, No, I didn't say that, I didn't mean it like that. You're overthinking it. You're you're you're just too sensitive. Because they they don't want to talk about it. Exactly, because that's the biggest difference between someone that's emotionally immature and somebody that's actively manipulating. People that are emotionally immature most of the times don't know because they just lack, like I said, they just lack tools, they just lack awareness. So they usually will be like, okay, I don't have the tools, I don't know how to process this, and I love you enough to go do the work. Again, that's their choice. But people that are actively manipulating don't want to change most of the time. So like they they're very comfortable because they've gone through their entire lives manipulating and getting what they want. So they don't see a desired outcome or an ideal way to live if they get rid of that manipulation. That makes sense. I'll give you an example. I'll give you an example of how sometimes two can kind of overlap. I had this, I mean, I still have this friend, close friend. Anytime she needs a favor, she will never ask me for a favor directly. Right? So she will be like, Can you watch my dog? Uh and this is by the way, you it'll also be like you're you spending time with the dog. It'll also be like you being in the house. And it'll always, she'll always make it seem like it's also a good thing for me. For you, yeah. And then one day I just had to be like, hey, you know what? Like next time, if you need a favor, I would much rather you just ask me for a favor. Right. I don't need to be benefiting from that. You don't need to tell me how that's good for me. You don't need to tell me how that's beneficial for me. We don't need to be playing, I didn't say playing all those games, but I was thinking in my mind, right? I'm like, I was giving the benefit of the doubt because I didn't know if she was, she knew that she was kind of being manipulative or whatever. So, or it could be emotional immaturity. Maybe she didn't know that she was doing that, right? So I gave her the benefit of the doubt and I had a conversation, and then she was like, Oh, I I'm sorry, I didn't know I was doing that. Like, I I I won't do that next time I'll just ask you for a favor. Right. So that was a quick fix. But if she was manipulating me, she would have probably turned it around on me. And if she had intentions to manipulate me, she would be like, How could you think that I was trying to help you too? Like, you how how can you say that? That's so rude.

SPEAKER_00: 28:47

Like, you know what I mean? Okay. So I have a I have an example that I want you to help me with. So if when we're talking about manipulation versus emotional maturity, let's say two people are disagreeing on an argument that they're having, and this is like a dating relationship, and they're arguing and disagreeing about a situation that has happened in the past. Okay. Um, like you said, when people feel like you're coming at them, they just automatically get defensive. So if someone's telling me in this moment that I did something out of spite or I did something, you know, to hurt them when that when that's not my truth, my truth was like, no, I did every, you know, I was not doing anything out of spite while I was single or anything like that. Um, and so of course I'm bringing up situations that did happen in the past, because I know they say not to do that, but I'm bringing up situations like, how is this any different than when XYZ? Or how is this any different than you know, these situations? Like at that moment when I was having the conversation with this person, they thought I was trying to throw past behaviors in their face or trying to defend, you know, what they were mad at at me for. And no, guys, this is not cheating or anything like that. This is I'm I'm just trying to like be as vague as possible. But um, they're trying to, you know, tell me that I'm trying to then defend my behavior and only bringing up past stuff that's in the past. And I'm like, no, I'm trying to bring up situations to show, you know, how is the feeling, the feeling any different? Like how when you did those past behaviors, this is how it made me feel when I've done this past behavior. This is obviously how it made you feel. So it's the same feeling that we're feeling, and I'm just trying to bring up an example, but I also can understand where they're they're coming from when they're They're like, but no, you're just bringing up past stuff and throwing it in my face. But the question is, is like, how do I know when we're having these conversations? And how do I know if it's manipulation versus emotional immaturity when I'm like he's having the conversation with me? He's listening to me talk, but then he he's also being defensive. I'm being defensive.

SPEAKER_03: 30:48

And let me ask you this: like, have both of you given each other the stage? And I think we briefly talked about it. Like when he's talking, are you completely listening and taking it in? And when you're talking, is he completely listening and taking it in and giving you the time to like process? Is that happening also?

SPEAKER_00: 31:05

I mean, I personally think that I give time. Um, I can't speak for someone else. Do I feel like he fully listens to me at times? No, I feel like he's already in defense mode and he's mad and he's angry, and so he's not hearing anything I have to say.

SPEAKER_03: 31:21

Right. It almost definitely feels a very much like emotional immaturity for sure. Because remember what we said about emotional immaturity, like poor regulation, um, very defensive, very reactive. All these signs are like coming up as emotional immaturity. However, if you have explained the situation in detail, you have you have talked about the intention behind it and the timeline of it and everything, and he is still choosing to do that, then that person has decided and they've already made a conclusion about you, right? And they may be using guilt or shame as tactics to make you feel bad about yourself. So that now falls into what started as emotional immaturity, falls into manipulation.

SPEAKER_00: 32:08

Yeah, and may maybe in that situation, maybe an unconscious manipulation because um I don't know. I truly don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 32:16

Yeah, it could be unconscious or conscious, but the thing is like this is this is this is my problem with unconscious and conscious. It doesn't matter. You're still hurting people, right? And when you're being called out, when you're being asked or when you're being talked to about how the other person is feeling, you have an opportunity to say, oh my God, I think I fucked up. I think I made a mistake, I think I take my statement back, I think I want to say it again. You also can say, hey, the energy is running too high. Why don't we connect in an hour? Why don't we connect in 30 minutes? No, so the the the way you're explaining is it's almost like I want to be right because I'm right, and this is it. Yeah. So it's almost like a made-up, the the person has already made up their mind in order to defend their point and defend their truth, and are unable and not only unable and more like unwilling to listen to your part.

SPEAKER_00: 33:20

Yeah, I mean, possibly so. Um, because I guess, and you tell me if I'm wrong here, and I think like this is a whole different topic, and I'm just curious with manipulation, emotional immaturity. Like we all use this word love, like I love you, like um, and no one can ever really explain it, right? Because it's kind of it doesn't you everyone's definition is different on what they're feeling. So we've always, you know, love has no bounds and all this other stuff. Why, but but it does because I've started, you know, I used to think like, oh, you just have to love someone enough. But at the end of the day, sometimes love isn't enough. And sometimes, you know, someone can like you can love someone to the death, but be like, you're not, I just don't like the way you treat me. Like, I just can't keep doing this. But that doesn't so for example, my uncle, my great uncle, who's passed away now, he loved his ex-wife like until the day he died. He never remarried, he never dated anyone outside of her, but he did not treat her the best way in their marriage. And he like he's told me this whole story. He was like, I did not treat her the way she deserved to be treated, and they got a divorce, but they both never remarried, and I don't know if she dated or not. Um, he did not, um, and they still talked as best friends and stuff like that because they loved each other, but at the end of the day, love just wasn't enough to carry that marriage out because of the way the actions he carried through that marriage.

SPEAKER_03: 34:41

No, absolutely. Love is never enough, it's not it's you sometimes not enough. Love is never enough, and I think I've told you this many times. I can engrave it in a stone, and I hope it'll stay after I die, which is romantic relationships are transactional. You can hate me for saying this, you can get triggered from me for saying this, but romantic relationships are transactional. Uh, there is there okay. This is the thing you can have unconditional love, but you can't have unconditional respect or disrespect. Right, you can't like that that's not okay. You can love somebody, but if they beat the crap out of you, you have to leave, right? Be us you and yellowity, you have to leave.

SPEAKER_00: 35:21

Right. Well, I guess where I was going with that is like, so uh I feel like when people are in love, they are a little bit blinded by some of the stuff and they can't see like you don't know. Right, like you go to your friends and you talk to your friends, and your friends are like, You're crazy. Like, what do you I would never put up with that behavior?

SPEAKER_03: 35:38

Absolutely. Like, I'll I'll give you an example of classic um love bombing combined with manipulation that I used in in in college. So when I was dating this guy, he would be like super possessive and he would not like it when I made plans with other people, even my own family members. He always wanted to be kind of consulted, he always wanted to be the person, and at that time he it was disguised as love, right? Because I loved him and he loved me. So he was like, I love you so much. So I want you to, I want to do everything with you. That's why. But actually, he was manipulating me, completely manipulating me because he was controlling me. So anytime I made plans with other people, he would make me feel extremely guilty as if I was doing something wrong, instead of actually communicating, telling me how he feels, getting vulnerable, talking about boundaries. No, none of that happened. It was just straight up anger, straight up control, straight up manipulation. Right. So yeah, and you are in love with someone, you can be very, very blinded because that love will blind you into seeing whether they're emotionally immature or they're manipulating you. But remember, even if you're blinded, even if they're manipulating you or if they're emotionally immature, but emotional immaturity, you can always have a conversation, and that person will most likely be receptive to change.

SPEAKER_00: 36:58

Well, you and you just made a good point. Like when you're in a relationship with someone, you sit down and you have those conversations, like, here's my boundaries, like here's those things. And if someone doesn't choose to make you their romantic partner, how do they then get to have boundaries and decisions over things that you're doing? If that if they say they don't want you to be their boyfriend or their girlfriend, and they say, you know, we're not this wasn't a relationship, and you know, how can they then get mad when you go date someone else or you go do your own thing?

SPEAKER_03: 37:31

Because that's control, that's manipulation. Again, it comes down to it because again, see, they're using guilt and shame as a tactic to loop you in because they're not giving you the commitment, they're not saying, you know, you're mine, and so I'm demanding this, or I asked this off you, or I request this off you. First of all, you can't demand anyone even if they're yours. That's that's another topic for another day. But my point is like, no, that's that's straight-up manipulation, and it's also a I feel like it's also a double standard sometimes because I feel like if we did the same to them the same way, the outcome would be so different. And and but if it I mean if they did the same to us, like we have to react differently versus like if we did the same to them, then you know it's explosions. So I think there's also a double standard in that. And I think it's definitely manipulation, if you ask me, whether it's immaturity or manipulation. Because, like I said, immaturity, you can call it out, you can have a conversation, you can fix it, you can change most of the time, unless that other person is extremely stubborn or unwilling.

SPEAKER_00: 38:33

And that makes sense because I'll say, like, I've had, you know, through my growth periods and stuff, like I'm I mean, I'm not saying I'm the most emotionally mature person, like I still have my moments, but like even in my like like I guess, quote unquote baddest moments, like years ago, like even like when me and my aunt have conversations, like if she would say something that would really irritate me about myself, I would be like, whatever. And then I would go think about it. And then it probably took me about two to three days, and I would I would either text her, probably text her because I didn't want to like have to face her in a phone call and be like, so I thought about it, and you are correct, I'm gonna work on this.

SPEAKER_03: 39:08

So that could be a sign of immaturity at that point for that specific topic, but chose again to reflect and come back. But see, manipulators don't take accountability. That's the difference between emotional immaturity and manipulation, because manipulators cannot take accountability, especially if they know that it's gonna serve them for their life, right?

SPEAKER_00: 39:28

Well, what do what would you say the best approach is when you realize a partner is emotionally immature? Is it all about patience, boundaries, or both? Or like how do you work through that? Because if you we can all say, like, okay, that's emotional maturity, they can talk about it, we can talk about it, but if it doesn't change, if there's no actionable change, then that relationship typically is not sustainable.

SPEAKER_03: 39:51

No, it's not sustainable. I always tell um, I will actually coaching a client yesterday about this. I always say when the other person is reacting, which is a sign of emotional immaturity because they can't regulate their feelings, remember? So they're very reactive, they're explosive, they're yelling and screaming, they're reactive. The best thing you can do is to be stoic, is to just stay there. Because if you react, remember, they're already emotionally mature. And if you're reacting, you're like adding more gasoline to the fire. So there's no resolution, there's nobody comes to any conclusion. So the best thing you can do is if you're dealing with somebody that's emotionally immature, whether it's a fight, whether it's a conflict, whether it's a situation, to be more stoic, to be more neutral, to be more balanced. Because when they are in that heightened state, whatever you say, it's not gonna land anyway. Right. It's not gonna work anyway. So you may as well give it some time, maybe a day or two, and then say, hey, I remember we had this conversation Friday, and this is this was the tone of the conversation. And when you said this, I felt this way, and it's triggering me and it's bringing up this, and I really wanted to bring it up to you so we can talk about it and then see how they respond.

SPEAKER_00: 41:06

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 41:07

If they say, No, this is you, you're oversensitive. This is not my fault. This is now it's not funny.

SPEAKER_00: 41:14

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03: 41:15

It's you know, now you're dealing with the manipulator, you're you're not dealing with somebody that's just emotionally immature.

SPEAKER_00: 41:21

I think I'm just laughing because I've I'm thinking of scenarios in my own life, but it's not that it's funny, it's just like, gosh, like when you say it, you know, and you have these conversations, you're like people, it it's almost like a well duh, but then when you're in it, it's not a well duh, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 41:36

Really not, it's really not. And you know, guys, it's easier said than done. I have to tell you that in the podcast, right? I'm able to stay here and talk about this for hours and say how to discern and how to identify and how to spot. But when you're in the situation and there's an emotionally immature person in front of you, there's triggers actively coming up, it is difficult. Right, it's not easy, it's harder to navigate that situation.

SPEAKER_00: 42:04

So, what's the healthy next step if you realize it is manipulation?

SPEAKER_03: 42:09

Oh, I would say leave. I mean, I'm kidding. Well, you know, for me, the healthy next step always, always is a conversation, right? And but with manipulators, you've got to be a little bit more careful because remember, even after you have a conversation, when they're doing it unconsciously, there is hope for a change, but when they're doing it consciously, they're doing it consciously because it serves them, because they're doing it for selfish reasons. So what I I actually even told this to a client, I said start writing it down whenever they do something manipulative. Put notes, put the date, put it in your notes, the situation, and start writing it down. Because if you're a victim of manipulation, sometimes what happens is you think that there's something wrong with you. Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 42:56

I was about to say those are those are kind of signs, like you start feeling like everything is your fault, and like, you know, like it's almost like that. Like, if someone dropped a glass in the kitchen and it wasn't you, you would still be like, oh my gosh, what you know? If I wouldn't have done that, he wouldn't have dropped that.

SPEAKER_03: 43:10

Exactly, exactly. That's why I say start writing it down because your own mind is not going to be your friend, especially when you have a history of being with manipulative parents, being around manipulative people, then you're used to that, then your nervous system is used to that kind of normalcy. So if you really want to identify and get away, you need evidence, you need strong evidence. So you need to start writing it down. This date, this happened when it was completely not my fault, and this person totally twisted my words. This day, this happened, it was not my fault, but they gaslit me and made me believe it was. So you want to start writing specifics, and then after, whenever I guess you've had enough, read it, look at it, see it, try to have a conversation with them. Most of the times, if they're doing it consciously, there is no hope for recovery. That's why a lot of therapists, a lot of therapists say, even though I think that people can change if they want to, a lot of therapists say that when people are narcissistic, manipulative inherently, they don't change, right?

SPEAKER_00: 44:10

Because more it's more of a personality disorder, from what I've read. Like most narcissistic, true, true narcissistic people, not just some narcissistic tendencies, they don't feel like they're doing anything wrong.

SPEAKER_03: 44:23

They don't, and they don't change, they have no reason to change because the entire their entire lives have worked out great for them in them being narcissists and the center of the reality. So they don't it for them, it's not good enough to change for one person.

SPEAKER_00: 44:38

Well, and when you believe you're if you truly believe you're not doing anything wrong, then why would you seek help? Why would you try to change if you truly in your mind go, what? I'm not doing anything wrong.

SPEAKER_03: 44:48

That's why I said run. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. When when a person has reached to a level where they are not able to take feedback at all and they also don't believe that they're doing anything wrong, there's no point in us staying and wasting our time.

SPEAKER_00: 45:04

Would you do you have three questions someone could ask themselves when they're unsure if they're dealing with emotional immaturity versus manipulation? Where they could like pause. Do you have anything? It doesn't have to be three, but like something that they could just pause for a moment and go, okay, is this emotional maturity or am I being manipulated right now?

SPEAKER_03: 45:22

You know, so this is a really interesting thing. So generally, when it's just emotional immaturity and the person is just reactive or doesn't know how to regulate, you don't normally feel unsafe in bringing things up. However, if there are manipulators and they're gaslighting you all the time, you go into this place of I don't even want to bring this up with them. So when you feel a lack of safety, you said three things. The first thing is lack of safety, it could most likely be manipulation.

SPEAKER_01: 45:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 45:55

And then you're and you already know, you already know it's going to be used against you when you bring it up. So your body doesn't feel safe in bringing anything up, right? Right. And the second thing is when you're in in the conversation, and again, the second thing is when you're in the conversation and they're not able to receive it and they gaslight you, manipulation. Right. It's immediately, it's it's immediately manipulation, right? And then the third thing is no accountability. They are not willing to look at themselves, they don't want to work on themselves, they're constantly in a cycle of blame. I've seen people like this. Oh, it's their fault, it's my mom's fault, it's my dad's fault, it's my brother's fault, it's my teacher's fault. They never want to take any accountability, they're in a state of victimhood, many, you know, they're and and you know, being a victim, get this being a victim gives them significance, it gives them attention. People are like, oh, poor you, what happened to you? So it gives them that that attention that they're like needing to validate for themselves, right? Right. So whenever you see signs like this, like victimhood, gaslighting, lack of safety in the body, it's usually manipulation.

SPEAKER_00: 47:05

And what's one practice that listeners can start today to build resilience against both?

SPEAKER_03: 47:13

Oh, that's a good one. You know, I always go back to self-development and self-awareness, which is build on your character. I always come back to who am I and what are my intentions? Who am I and what are my intentions? And if you are very anchored in who you are, what your values are, again, boundaries are so sexy, like what your boundaries are. If you can be really anchored in that, then it's really difficult for people to manipulate you. It's really difficult for people to get under your skin because they know that you're hard to manipulate. They can't pull those strings, they can't do the gaslighting game, they can't do the guilt and shame game, they can't do any of that because they're probably like, oh, she is way too confident in who she is and she has boundaries and she's gonna walk away. So I can't really do that.

SPEAKER_00: 48:03

It's funny that you say that because this this past week with my therapist, I was having this conversation. I was like, I think I need to start working on my self-esteem. And she was like, Why do you say that? And I was like, Well, just because past people that I've dated, like I think it's clear that my self-esteem, like sometimes it's there, like there's a difference in self-esteem and self-confidence, right? Like I'm confident at work, I'm confident sometimes when I like put makeup on and go out, but I'm uh at my core, still need clearly still have work to do because I wouldn't allow someone to come in and out of my life, walk all over me, not allow me to have conversations and stuff like that. If I were truly like I love who I am, and I, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like if I had a firm foundation.

SPEAKER_03: 48:44

Yes and no. I have to deny a little bit of that. Yes, uh, because yes, part of it is true. Part of it I have to say is no, is because I think it also comes with intentions. Like, for example, if you believe the best in people, sometimes you give them too much grace than they deserve. Yeah. So you're probably giving them too much grace than they deserve because that's what you would have wanted for yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 49:06

Well, yeah, she said the same thing because I was like, I and that's where it's hard because she was like, I see you as someone who has really good self-esteem. And I was like, maybe now more than I used to, but then also at the same time, when since you brought that up, I was like, I think it's because I never want someone to feel the way I felt as a child. And so I never want to give up on someone because I felt like I was giving up on a lot, right?

SPEAKER_03: 49:30

Right, right. But I think that that's the difference, right? What they did was when you were a child, right? But these people are walking adults, walking time bombs, choosing, choose every day. They're waking up, choosing to be manipulative, yeah, choose to not do the work on themselves, right? That's a whole other ball. You can't compare again, you can't compare you as a child to a grown woman or man.

SPEAKER_00: 49:57

No, I know. I think it I think just at a subconscious level, like when I'm like trying to iterate, or that's not the word, trying to like just say like why maybe some of the behaviors that I do, like why I hold on so hard to people, why you know, because number one, potential, which we all know to stop, you know, chasing potential. Um, but two, I think it's just because like I see who they could be, and I just want to push them, but obviously it's not my choice, and I have to realize that because then maybe that's maybe that's me being a manipulator, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 50:29

I mean, it's also like again, you don't you just don't want to give up, and I get that you don't want to give up because it feels painful to be given up on, and and you've experienced that and I feel that. But the thing is, Jonna, you have to remember this is gonna sound crazy. Even serial killers have potential, okay? Just saying, even people, you're not wrong, mental institutions have potential, even crazy people have like I don't like to use the word crazy, I don't use that in my profession. I shouldn't, but uh you you understand what I'm saying, though. Like people are irrational and unbelievable, like sociopaths, yeah, and stuff like that. They have do they have potential to be better? Sure, but do they want to exactly do they want to? So are we wasting our time and like seeing, oh, let's see if I can fix him or her? Like, that's that's where accountability again comes in, right? See, emotionally mature people when you call them out, it's easy for them, not easy, easier for them to take accountability because most of the times they may not be aware that they're emotionally um immature and they may lack tools, they just need that help, they just need that push. Yeah, but people that choose that constantly every day, they know that they're miserable, they know they don't have an outcome and a happy life, an ideal outcome, and they choose that.

SPEAKER_00: 51:47

I mean, I can I can say for 100%, I was very emotionally immature, very, and I hated the way I ended up feeling at the end of the day, fights with people, friends, family, you know, romantic partner. So that's why I chose. I was like, I've got to do something. I've got to go to therapy, I've got to read a book, I've got something because I don't like the way this feels every time.

SPEAKER_03: 52:07

Yeah, no, totally get it. So I hope this like completely um I don't know, makes it clear, like right, you know, tutorial and manipulation, and how we can spot it and then how we can how we can discern and how we can communicate even to others, and when we communicate what we can spot and in the way that they react, and you know, how we can draw boundaries and just all of it.

SPEAKER_00: 52:28

It does, but we're gonna do some rapid fire because that's my new thing that I've been doing. So I have a few scenarios, and I want you to say if it's emotional immaturity, manipulation, or possibly both. And here we go. Number one, he um they say they don't want a girlfriend or boyfriend, but they get upset when you date other people. Manipulation. They apologize number two, they apologize only after you cry, but not when you calmly bring up concerns.

SPEAKER_02: 53:00

It could be both. It could be both.

SPEAKER_00: 53:03

They blame you for making them mad when you set a boundary. Manipulation. They blame you. Oh, I just said that one. They ignore you for days, then come back acting like nothing happened.

SPEAKER_02: 53:18

Manipulation.

SPEAKER_00: 53:20

They say you're quote unquote too sensitive when you point out hurtful comments.

SPEAKER_02: 53:26

Manipulation.

SPEAKER_00: 53:27

They withhold affection until you give in to what they want.

SPEAKER_03: 53:31

1000% manipulation. Women have done this for century. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00: 53:36

They confess deep feelings after you've threatened to leave.

SPEAKER_03: 53:41

Classic manipulation.

SPEAKER_00: 53:43

I say that could be both. I say that could be emotional immaturity because, like, let's say that they're an avoidant, and then they're very afraid that you mean it this time and you're gonna leave, like something's different, and it like gets them to the core. I feel like at that moment they could be like, but wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay. I've maybe or no.

SPEAKER_03: 54:04

The reason I say is no is that it's a pattern. I don't believe somebody wakes up and decides to be some kind of way. Okay, right. The reason I say is manipulation is it's possible that this is not the first time they've done it. Okay. So if it's not the first time they've done it, they know that they're doing it. So if they know that they're doing it, how can it be immaturity? Because remember, immaturity can be fixed if they realize that they're immature.

SPEAKER_00: 54:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 54:29

But if it's repetitive, it's a pattern, it's manipulation.

SPEAKER_00: 54:33

Okay. They compare you to their ex to make a point about your behavior.

SPEAKER_03: 54:38

I think that's very immature.

unknown: 54:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 54:41

You find yourself constantly apologizing to keep the peace.

SPEAKER_03: 54:46

I mean, that's very unhealthy. What do I say? Is that manipulation or ugh, that's neither.

SPEAKER_00: 54:53

I think it could be better. Probably emotional immaturity.

SPEAKER_03: 54:56

Yeah, I mean, I I wouldn't the person that's constantly apologizing, you know, that's that's not healthy. So that's that's emotional immaturity on their part. They need to regulate, um, and know that okay, I've apologized once and that's enough.

SPEAKER_00: 55:12

Right. What if some um I already asked you that one? A partner says, if you really loved me, you would do this for me. Who manipulation?

SPEAKER_03: 55:21

I love these questions. You you are good ones.

SPEAKER_00: 55:24

A friend explodes in anger, but later apologizes, saying they didn't know how else to express themselves. Emotional immaturity.

SPEAKER_03: 55:32

Because, see, again, not lack of regulation reactivity, that's more emotional immaturity.

SPEAKER_00: 55:36

A coworker constantly forgets to do their part of a project, but always has an excuse. Ooh, manipulation. Yes. Someone deletes messages, blocks, and unblocks to control when conversation happens with the other person.

SPEAKER_03: 55:52

You just said control, so it's manipulation. I know, I shouldn't have said that. Okay, that's all I have. But those are really good ones and really great examples. So, guys, we are we like shared real-time stories with you. There are a lot of things that I shared with you that has happened in my life. It's not imaginary stories and things that Jana said has happened in her life. So if you're listening to this, if you're able to see these signs, please start noting them down. Take your notepad, lock the notes, keep it just for you. Start documenting things so that you are self-aware because it is not a good reality to live when you're constantly being manipulated. You deserve payment for that, you deserve authenticity, you deserve truth, you deserve love. Whoever is listening to this, you deserve that.

SPEAKER_00: 56:36

I agree. And then I also like being like, like I said, I've been the emotionally immature one, and I didn't get out of that until I did seek uh, you know, professional help, whether that be through life coaching, through therapy, like obviously I still am mature at times, but it's quicker to recognize with the tools that I've learned, both from menu and through my therapy sessions, um, or even books that I've read, you know? So, and I also think, like, you know, if you are the, you know, I'm not gonna say victim of manipulation, I was about to say that. If you are the one being manipulated, I also think that sometimes like trying to get out of your own head and realizing things aren't your fault is also difficult without professional help as well.

SPEAKER_03: 57:15

It's very difficult. And I had to call actually an adult out a few months ago, one of my family members, because anytime um there was any anytime I said something and they didn't like it, they would give me the silent treatment. Guys, I'm telling you, silent treatment is manipulation. Maybe you're doing it unconsciously, maybe you're doing it with your child or your partner. Like that is not healthy. We are adults, we can talk about things, we can always say something is hurtful and something needs to change. Let's let's open up and talk more. Like, let's not play these games with our friends, family members, with our partners. Let's be communicative, let's work on ourselves. I'm not a whole person, I'm still working on myself, John is still working on ourselves. We are always gonna be a work in progress, but as long as you are open and curious, you are golden. Right. Just don't shut yourself off. Don't ever say, I'm done working on this. Is it no, no, no? It's it's always, there's always more, there's always more to go. There's always how there's always ways to grow. So just remember that.

SPEAKER_00: 58:13

All right. Thank you as always, Mimi, for doing this with me. And until next time, guys, bye.