Babbling About Why We Label Instead Of Communicate w/ Meenu

#202: The internet made it easy to slap a diagnosis on anyone who annoys us, but that habit is burning out our relationships. We dig beneath the buzzwords to ask better questions: What’s the difference between harm and discomfort? When is a trait “workable,” and when is it a pattern of disrespect? How do we own our triggers without turning them into shields? With real stories from dating and friendships, we draw a clean line between emotional intelligence and weaponized psychology, and we share tools that actually move conversations forward.

We get practical about communication. You’ll hear how “giving the stage” lowers defenses, why timing matters when emotions run hot, and how a simple reflection—“What I’m hearing is…”—can rescue a spiraling exchange. We talk scripts for naming needs without blame, and we unpack the toughest dynamics: gaslighting and minimization, jokes that sting, boundary testing, and promises that don’t match patterns. You’ll learn why different communication styles (text vs call, frequent vs spacious) aren’t red flags by themselves, and how to negotiate capacity during heavy seasons with honesty and care.

Friendships take center stage too. We highlight real red flags—one‑sided emotional labor, covert competitiveness, making you small when you grow—and what is simply human: quiet phases, changing bandwidth, and evolving rhythms. To tie it all together, we offer four clarifying questions to replace instant labeling: Is this a pattern or a phase? Have I been clear? Do I feel unsafe or just uncomfortable? Is this activating a wound or revealing a truth? If you’re ready to trade snap judgments for sturdier relationships, press play, share this with a friend, and tell us: which question will you start using today? And if this resonates, subscribe, leave a review, and help more listeners find the show.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Label Culture
• 2:00 Awareness Vs Weaponized Psychology
• 6:30 The Narcissist Spectrum Explained
• 12:30 Triggers, Ownership, And “Whataboutmeism”
• 14:57 [Ad] PodMatch
• 15:34 (Cont.) Triggers, Ownership, And “Whataboutmeism”
• 19:06 Vulnerability, Giving The Stage, Timing
• 25:36 Curiosity Over Judgment In Conflict
• 30:06 Human Behavior Isn’t A Red Flag
• 35:06 Patterns, Boundaries, And Respect
• 39:36 Gaslighting, Jokes, And Minimization
• 44:36 Friendship Dynamics And Communication Styles
• 49:36 Compromise, Capacity, And Seasons
• 53:36 The Four Discernment Questions
• 54:56 Wrap-Up And What’s Next

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

All right, guys. Welcome back to another episode of the Babbles Nonsense podcast with me, Jonna, and Transcend into Wellness with Me You. Today we are talking about something we think a lot of us are quietly exhausted by, and that is how we've gone from ignoring red flags to diagnosing everyone. Somewhere along the way, normal human behavior started getting labeled as toxic, unsafe, avoidant, or narcissistic. And that shift deserves a real conversation. Awareness is powerful, but hypervigilance isn't healing. I'm not recording this episode alone. As I mentioned, Mean You is here with me, and we're having an honest, grounded conversation about the difference between emotional intelligence and weaponized psychology, how therapy language gets misused in relationships and friendships, and what gets lost when we stop allowing people to be human. This isn't about excusing harmful behavior. It's about learning how to tell the difference between harm and discomfort. So if you've ever wondered, am I being self-aware or am I just being guarded? This one's for you. So let's get into it. So this one's gonna be a good one. I'm so excited for this.

SPEAKER_02: 1:33

I'm so excited. I when I when I this this discussed this with John of River, like we have to record this. Well when I think of this.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41

Yeah, because I think that you were when you brought it up and you were talking about it, I was like, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense because I'm guilty of it myself. Like just in general, whether it be a relationship or a friendship, like when something you know is not going our way, maybe, then I it's so easy to just quickly throw a label on it, especially in the societal cult culture that we live in now with TikTok and Instagram, where everyone thinks they're a therapist or every, you know, and there's so much advice out there.

SPEAKER_02: 2:08

No, it's so much that I think people start, people literally stop paying attention to their own um intuition, their own guidance, which is I always believe we all have that in our guidance, and they stop paying attention to that and they resort to scrolling, and then everything becomes a red flag, and then everything becomes toxic. So, what what why we are doing this is to have an honest conversation again so that you guys can listen to our version of what is a real red flag versus internet's version of red flags and toxic and all those things. And we're gonna talk about it in not just relationshipy aspect, we're gonna bring friendship in the uh in the mix, and we're gonna bring different components and talk about it as a bigger picture.

SPEAKER_00: 2:51

So we're trying to be a little bit more mindful and kind of give points and topics and how many. So we have about I think four or five topics we want to discuss around this. So the first one is going to be the awareness versus weaponized psychology, meaning, like there is a lot of therapy language that is thrown around, whether that be on the internet, social media, with your friends, because it's quote unquote buzzwords, like and things like narcissistic, um, red flag, toxic, avoidant, um, trauma bonded, all of those things, which yes, can be true, but we want to kind of dive into is it really true, or are you just uncomfortable because you're not used to the behavior?

SPEAKER_02: 3:35

Yeah. And also, are you uncomfortable because you're not able to communicate your feelings to that person? So instead of communicating your actual feelings to that person, you you resort to comfort, which is adding a label and talking about it.

SPEAKER_00: 3:50

Right, right, right, right. So let's just jump into some examples. So the one that really does bother me the most, and I do I try not my best not to say the narcissistic term a lot because I feel like that one is a huge, that one was a huge one for months. And I had a lot of friends that like if we were just talking about maybe something there was going on in their dating life or maybe something going on in my dating life, they'd instantly be like, narcissist, and I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, I think I true, like obviously we know most everyone knows what a narcissist is now. And like they truly have no empathy, they can't apologize, they won't seek help, they never think that they're doing anything wrong. And I have to point that out, like when me and my friends are having these discussions, and I'm like, no, they apologized. So like I just think that that's just their personality. Like it's not an it's not a narcissistic personality. It's maybe that's the capacity that they have in that moment, right?

SPEAKER_02: 4:50

Exactly. And it's the same for me when people look at one trait that a person exhibits and then they name them as something sociopath, narcissists, avoidant. Well, you really haven't even gotten a chance to know them. So you want to label them again. I think we like as human beings, and this is psychology coming in, which is we like to have certainty, right? And because we want certainty, we want to label things, put them in their bins, their categories, exactly, organize it in your mind, right? Like a lot of people, this is why they're uncomfortable with women that are single because they can't put them in anything. You know, when they're dating and not officially in a relationship, you know, when you're just dating, like you're not like committed in a relationship, other women are so uncomfortable with that because you can't put them in a bin. So this is one of those aspects where you can't put them in a bin, so you just label them.

SPEAKER_00: 5:48

Or yeah, I agree with that. And like even like when you get in a fight with someone you're like dating or something like that, that's when I feel like those words come out a lot. Like if it's a fight or an argument, it's like you're just a narcissist, you're just a so you know, it's like, no, now, don't get me wrong, someone could very well have narcissistic tendencies, but that doesn't make them a narcissist. There's a very, very big difference.

SPEAKER_02: 6:14

Yeah, and also this is something I learned many years ago is that narcissism, and I'm so sorry if this can trigger any of you, it's a spectrum. It's not he is he a narcissist or is he not a narcissist? Sometimes he may be, he may have three out of ten traits, two out of ten. Some some someone will have seven out of ten. So it's a spectrum, and you have to ask yourself again, and I'm not saying you have to say be with the narcissist person, or I'm not saying marry the narcissist person, but my point is how much of it is toxic and how much off it is workable.

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

Right, right. Well, like for example, for me, if I if I had to put a label on me, most would probably label me a high anxiety person. Now, I personally people can laugh at this if they want. I don't think that I'm a highly anxious person. I think I have anxious tendencies around certain things, but then around other things where I'm very comfortable, I am very comfortable and I I kind of let go of the reins a little bit. So it's like just putting a like you said, it's just that putting that label, which can have that negative connotation, just to make our mind feel more comfortable.

SPEAKER_02: 7:28

Again, the certainty aspect is so real, right? Again, the the mind wants to feel certain. So it's natural human behavior to put people under and have labels for everything. So I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 7:38

Yeah. And then also triggers, like, you know, we talk about triggers on here a lot and like childhood trauma and things that trigger us, which we know is our responsibility, guys. The person who has the trigger to learn the triggers and work around the triggers. It's not someone else's responsibility to avoid your triggers or know your triggers, but then we get mad and we want to talk about childhood trauma. And I know I bring it up a lot, but it's not an excuse when I bring it up. It's something that I'm becoming more aware of to understand my personality and where my personality is coming from. But that's a big one too in society right now, is a lot of people are like, yeah, but I am the way I am because that's just my childhood trauma.

SPEAKER_02: 8:18

Yeah, I know, right? Oh my God. It's so interesting. There's this thing going on in Instagram. It's called what about meism? Oh, I haven't seen this. Literally called what about meism. So it's all about, I have this, I'm a victim, so this is the way I am. And me, me, me, me, me, me, me. It's like being super self-centered, uh, and saying that, oh, I'm actually healing, I'm actually self-aware, but this is who I am, this is me. It's making it excessively about yourself. Yeah. You think that that's okay, but the world doesn't revolve around you.

SPEAKER_00: 8:55

Right. And I do think there's a huge difference between like recognizing it and saying, okay, I'm communicating. Okay, me and Min you were having a conversation as friends, and I say, Hey, mew, when you blatantly ignore me, that triggers me because I have abandonment wounds. So I'm just letting you know, can we come up with a compromise where I'm a little less triggered because I am aware of my trigger? And I do know that's a me thing, and I do understand that that's not your problem. But is there something, you know, and if my friend cares about me, they're gonna say, Yeah, sure, maybe I can respond to you within a day instead of three days, you know, whatever the compromise may be versus menu, when you ignore me, it really pisses me off because it triggers me. And I just don't think you care about me because you don't care about my triggers. There's a huge difference in those conversations.

SPEAKER_02: 9:43

There's a huge difference in those conversations, and I think there is also a huge difference in how you perceive it, because um, again, in the first end, you're perceiving it as you know, I'm owning up my triggers and I'm being vulnerable and I'm talking to you. And first of all, let me tell you this, guys. Like if somebody is coming to you and they're telling you with so much vulnerability because it takes a lot of guts to come up to somebody and say, hey, during this conversation, I kind of felt this way when you said this way, and I felt hurt, and I just wanted to share this. It takes tremendous amount of courage and guts and vulnerability to even share that. So when somebody is sharing that, please, please, for the love of God, don't see it as an attack on your character, don't see it as an attack on, oh, I'm lacking in this, and they're accusatory. No, the the reason and the fact that they're coming to talk to you means they actually want you in their lives. Yeah. I love that you said that. It is not a red flag.

SPEAKER_00: 10:48

I love that you said that because I actually have two parts to that. So, one being um, it is all about how you communicate and how you're vulnerable. And something I've noticed, and we've mentioned this on podcasts before, especially when men, when they finally do find the courage to tell you something that's bothering them, and we as women attack what they're saying because they didn't quote unquote say it the way we wanted them to, then that shuts them down to never be vulnerable again. And I'm not saying that's not just men, that could be anyone in general that struggles with vulnerability. The second being, I actually had a perfect example of this happen this past weekend where I had to communicate to a friend that my feelings were kind of hurt because I felt like I've been kind of left out a little bit in the friendship. And I knew that I needed to take my time with it, with how I worded it, because we've had this conversation before. And the first time it did not go well at all. We had to take a friendship break because of how, and it was my fault because it was how I communicated it. But this second time I was really mindful with my words, which I was scared to death to even bring the conversation up again because of how bad the first conversation went. But it went great because I chose my words perfectly. I didn't accuse anyone. I was like, I know this really is a me thing, and I know this is not your intention. Yeah, but this is how I've how I've been feeling. And her response literally was, I'm so sorry you've been feeling in that way. And if I've done anything that made you feel that way, I also am sorry. So it was a great conversation. Beautiful, yeah, and so I think number one, communication and how you do it, and number two, being open, like maybe someone may not be the best communicator, or they haven't dealt with that dynamic because they're not used to being vulnerable or open to talk about what's going on, right?

SPEAKER_02: 12:30

And you know, sometimes, like what you said, John Alex, some people don't know how to communicate, and this is something I've talked about in many episodes before. We are not taught how to communicate, that is something they should be teaching us in schools, but nobody thought about it in schools. Learn very brutally in our 20s and 30s in how to actually communicate. So when somebody doesn't communicate, that's not a red flag. When somebody doesn't communicate, it very well means that they are not taught how to communicate, they don't know how to communicate. And I'm not saying that you have to sit there and tolerate that bullshit. You are very much allowed to call them out, you are very much allowed to say, Hey, communication is really important to me. This really matters to me. So I need you to step it up, I need you to do this, I need you to do that in a romantic relationship, in a friend setting. All that matters a lot, right? I the reason why we're making this episode itself is so that you don't have to be in any extreme of extreme ways, right? Yeah, oh, is it a red flag or should I fully accept them? No, like be in the middle, get curious. I always tell you guys over and over if you're my listeners, get curious instead of judgmental. Get curious, ask questions. Hey, I saw that you did it, that did this, did this the other day, or said this the other day, and I'm coming to you with curiosity because I don't want to judge you. You know, I don't want to jump to conclusions, I just want to understand why that happened. I just want to that just changes everything because you're going from a place of I'm accusing you, to I just want to understand what happened overall.

SPEAKER_00: 14:07

And then that that's our second point in all of this is human behavior is not a red flag. So, like communication itself can't it, it can be a red flag, um, depending on if someone's growing maybe in their communication, if you've maybe communicated the same thing over and over, maybe you've tried different styles different ways, and someone's just not hearing you. That in itself could be, you know, a red flag. But if you're growing in your communication and you're learning to communicate maybe better, more maturely, less accusatory, like you just said, that isn't a red flag. So that's what we're trying to show there is discernment here where certain things can be red flags. So we're not saying that they're not. It we're just saying, like, don't just immediately because social media told you, oh, that man did that, you gotta go. You know?

SPEAKER_02: 15:26

No, I fully, fully agree, fully agree. And I've also witnessed a lot of relationships because I do coach couples from time and time, is when you have a little bit of grace and you ask the right questions, there's so much clarity, and then you understand that there was no reason to label them in the first place. And you also start to label them again because your need for certainty or social media or somebody told you that they're a red flag.

SPEAKER_00: 15:52

Right. And so, like some of the human behaviors that we would agree that may not necessarily be a red flag are like needing space sometimes, being awkward with your emotions, not fully knowing how to communicate if you've not really been used to being vulnerable in the past, um, communicating different when you're under stress. Maybe you have kids, maybe there's something work going on, finances. Um, so you're maybe a little bit more short-tempered.

SPEAKER_02: 16:20

Right. And also communicating lesser than there's bigger events going on in your life. You know, I've had so many seasons with some of my best friends, like one of my closest friends, bestest friends in my world, like lives in Melbourne, which is completely Melbourne, Australia, which is on the other side of the earth. And we have gone weeks without a text, weeks without a voice note. And then we'll just call each other. And we used to be talking to each other every single day. We went from talking every day to now talking once a month or once every few weeks. Now, is that a red flag? No, it's right flag, and that doesn't mean I have to cut her out. I can't be like, oh, you're not talking to me like you before, you're not a good friend, like I'm cutting you out, you're a red flag. No, like have grace in understanding that other people have lives, other people have changes. And if you're ever feeling like you need to label things, talk to them, right? Ask them questions, get curious. Hey, I feel this way because of these situations, this incident. What do you think? And it's like beautifully, like, how can we have a middle ground or a common ground like what you did with your friend?

SPEAKER_00: 17:29

Yeah, and like it's crazy because I and this is where I have seen growth in myself, like from when I was in my 20s to now being almost in my 40s. Like, I used to be that way, that friend that was like, you don't talk to me as much as you once did. Like, we used to talk every day, but like as we grow and we see that life happens, and you know, like one of my friends right now is in a completely different season of her life. Me and her used to be thickest thieves, hang out, go for walks, go have lunch a couple of times a week, but she just had a baby. And so I I know that's not gonna happen for a while again. And that what kind of friend would I be if I was like calling her saying, you don't talk to me every day anymore?

SPEAKER_02: 18:09

You know? Right, right. And I'm gonna offer a very contradicting take here. Please don't come at me, okay? I truly have realized, and again, guys, this is all trial and error. I'm not perfect. I used to be like this too. Um, but I have realized that when you unconditionally want to love someone, when you really want to hold space for someone, you are holding space for their transitions too.

SPEAKER_00: 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:36

You are holding space for what they're going through too. And I'm not saying you have to tolerate disrespect, I'm not saying you have to tolerate ghosting. That is completely different. Now, when those things happen, you get to have a conversation, you get to call it out, you get to clear the air. But I am saying when there's naturally things that are evolving where things are changing, the dynamic is changing. Get curious and just love them a little more in those seasons. Just have a little bit more grace. Because I feel like we have too many reasons to be disconnected now. Yeah. So we have to find ways to f feel more connection.

SPEAKER_00: 19:10

I agree. And I think that's perfect what you said. Like, obviously, again, with all these points we're gonna make, there are definitely discernment, which the next point in a minute when we transition will be the actual red flags that you probably do need to pay attention to. Um, probably the ones I ignore the most, but um I'm guilty of that too. I just think that we all have to understand that we're all human, we make mistakes. Like, like you said, I'm not perfect, you're not perfect. You're a life coach and you do this, you coach people and you still mess up during the day, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 19:45

1000%, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 19:47

And same here. Like I will read as many self-help books as I can. I talk to you, we do these podcasts, we're trying to help many people, but I still don't communicate effectively all the time. I still get very hot-tempered. I still, but does that mean I'm a walking red flag? No, I have moments, just like everybody else has moments. And like that's something I try to give grace to other people. And maybe my friends would say I give too much grace sometimes. But it's because I know I've been there and I haven't always like if I would have met me in my 20s, and I tell this to all my friends, like, I like when people meet me and they're like, oh my God, I'm like, no, no, no, you would not have been my friend 15 You wouldn't have because I was the most miserable person in the season of life that I was in. I hated my job. I was burnt out. I financially was struggling. Like it just wasn't a good time for me. I was going through a horrible dating experience. So you just wouldn't have loved me. You'd have been like, oh my God. Like, no. So I just try to give people grace knowing that that now there's probably a timeline. I don't know if you have or like, well, Jonah, you know, maybe after this long, maybe it's no longer grace. That's who they are.

SPEAKER_02: 20:57

You know, it's so funny you say that. Uh, I just posted, not just posted a few weeks ago on Instagram that the way people treat you is not personal. It's not. And we are at this age right now, in time and age where everything feels like an attack. Everything feels personal. Guys, guys, other people have lives. I'm sorry. They have traumas, they have shit popping up. It's not perfect. They are not meant to show up perfectly all the time. That is not how it goes.

SPEAKER_00: 21:31

And that it's crazy because like sometimes I try to, you know, communicate my feelings to people, and then you know, it depends on where they're at in their life, too. It's all it's so crazy. But like sometimes like I feel like people think take it as an attack when you're just trying to have a conversation and be like, hey, like this really hurt me, or you know, saying this hurts my feelings. Can we come up with something where that's not happening? And it's almost like you said, it's taken very personal. Like, what do you mean? You don't like my personality? That's what I hear.

SPEAKER_02: 22:01

Yeah, and then what happens is they start making it about them. So this is something that my boyfriend should really come on this podcast. We should really do this because we do this with each other, which is talked about this with you before, which is giving the stage. And guys, I'm telling you, friendships, relationships, coworker relationship, family, please take this advice because this is golden in my personal life. That's why I'm sharing this. Which is when somebody comes to you and they're sharing something that you did, or they're sharing something about their life, something personal, something deep, something vulnerable. Please give them the stage. And what does that mean? Let me elaborate. What that means is not making it about you. That's point number one. You're not going to make it about you because this is their time to talk. So let them take the stage, right? And then the second is not taking it as an attack. Let them finish what they're saying. Stop interrupting them, stop cutting them off, stop doing all these things. You think that, oh, I have to interrupt it to make my point. Like I need to do this for myself. No, you're actually ruining it because you're not respecting that they have the stage. So give them the stage. I always feel whenever people have the stage to finish a sentence, to finish a conversation, to say their part, whether they're hurt or offended, and they've taken their time to explain it, right? And then when it is your time, you take the stage. Yeah. You know the small change. You know how healthy this can make things. This is incredible.

SPEAKER_00: 23:34

No, I agree. Um, because actually, like someone told me one time, and I I'll agree to this, they were like, you just want to talk when emotions are too heated. And that is something that I'm really gonna have to work on because it is true. Like, I want to talk about it right then. I want to be immediate because I feel like I'm being an effective communicator in the moment, but I'm probably not because I know myself well enough. I'm probably doing the interrupting. Um, because I'm like, you know, because I'm trying to explain myself, but it's but and it can come across very controversial. Um, so that's something I am trying to work on, like taking a beat and just being like, okay, let my emotions die down. Because I think when your emotions die down, you can do that a little bit easier and better communication-wise.

SPEAKER_02: 24:18

Thousand percent. And I had an incident with somebody a few months ago, and they were telling me basically how something that I had done had offended them. And when they were telling me that, I couldn't receive that feedback properly because their emotions were so heightened when they were talking about so even though I understood the message, it was so hard for me to take that feedback because I was like, why are you throwing that at me? Like, I'm not responsible for your feelings, right? If you think about it, guys, it's actually unfair. The other person doesn't need to handle your emotions, the other person doesn't need to handle your tantrum. So, the effective way to really communicate is when you're feeling heightened, when you're feeling very triggered, you have a good cry, you write in your journal, you scream into a pillow, you do whatever you have to do, go for a run to release that pent-up energy. And then when you're calm, have a conversation and see how that goes. This is an advice that my dad taught me when I was eight years old. He said, if you ever dislike something, if you ever don't like something, don't say it right away. Take some time. That advice saved me till today.

SPEAKER_00: 25:33

Yeah, I that's funny because my aunt gave me a similar piece of advice because I was very impulsive, very impulsive. Like if I was very upset or anxious or whatever, I would immediately text that person or whatever the situation may be. Now that I've gotten older because feelings are so fleeting, and you taught me that, like you may not feel that way tomorrow. You like, for example, break. Let's just do this. When you're in your teen years, what how easy is it for someone to be like, that's it, it's over, we're broken up, right? And so you wake up the next morning and you're like, Why didn't I do that?

SPEAKER_01: 26:03

Why did I do that?

SPEAKER_00: 26:04

I don't want to, I don't want to be broken up. That was the dumbest fight ever. You know what I'm saying? So, like, and it carries on into your adulthood too. Like, we do stuff like that. And I do have a friend that does that quite often, and I was just like, You gotta quit. You can you take a minute? Can you can can you take a minute before you say that you're never talking to me again?

SPEAKER_02: 26:25

Yeah, it's so true. Effective communication. And the reason I'm saying this is like, not everybody has learned this. Nobody taught me. I learned it in my 30s. Nobody teaches us these things. So when somebody is not doing that, somebody is not an effective communicator, they're not showing up in an ideal way that you think they should. Don't label them as a red flag. Don't do that because I know it's easy for you. You're doing it. Toxic, yeah. Or toxic, like you're doing it to protect yourself. Your inner child is probably screaming and is in survival mode, and you just want to shut it down. So you're like, nope, I'm gonna cut them off. But but is that really how you grow? Is that how it works?

SPEAKER_00: 27:03

Right. But it's so funny though, because in nursing school, you actually learn effective communication skills. And now that I'm thinking about it, I'm like, huh, now that we're talking about this, maybe I should use that. You would think I would. Um, in my because, you know, in nursing school, they teach us different ways to communicate with patients. And one being like you go in and say, here's your medication, like you explain it in you know, different ways, whether that be verbal, visual, whatever, and then you ask for a repeat back. Like, and so maybe sometimes in communication, instead of just jumping to the conclusion or getting mad, maybe if we're not understanding or if we're if you have that immediate shock factor, like, oh my gosh, what maybe just be like, hey, just curious real quick, can I can I pause you for a second? What I'm perceiving you to say is this. Is that what you're intending to say? Because this is the way it's hitting my brain.

SPEAKER_02: 27:53

Yes, that's that's literally the conversation I had with one of my friends when she approached me because she was like talking to me about it. All I could feel was attack, attack, attack because she was coming at it a little bit emotionally charged, right? And she's probably passionate at the moment, exactly. So I couldn't receive the message. So, you know what I did? I didn't interrupt her at all. I let her have the stage, and I was furious. All I wanted to do was interrupt, all I wanted to do is cut it off. All I wanted to do is take my power back. But you know what? I was like, you know what? I'm not gonna do this today. I'm gonna give it 24 hours. And guys, it is really hard. Okay, so don't think that I don't understand it to give space and time. Giving space and time during a time of conflict when you have a point to make, I get it. It's so fucking hard. But after 24 hours, everything had calmed down. And then I went to her and I said, Hey, uh, I appreciate the message. I've had time to think about it. However, if you ever want to give me feedback in the future, this is not how I receive it. I don't, I can't receive it. It's not that I don't want to, my body physically rejects the feedback because my survival response kicks in when I feel like you're throwing stuff at me, which is not mine to deal with, right? So I said, if you ever want to give me feedback, you can be direct with me, but just don't come at it from an emotional perspective. Don't come at it in an accusatory way because I can't receive feedback.

SPEAKER_00: 29:27

And I love that you say that because it just reminded me of a conversation I had with my aunt. So, like I talk about her a lot on this podcast. She's one of my favorite human beings on this earth. But in the past few months, we have not been communicating well at all. Like we've been missing each other every step of the way, which it's bothering me at my core because she is literally my like the person I run to for everything. And we finally, over Thanksgiving, kind of got down to what was bothering us both, and it was how we were communicating. Because when I get passionate about something, my voice does tend to get higher. I'm sure people on this podcast have noticed, and I start talking faster. Well, for her, that's very triggering to her because she's had trauma with that. And then when she's talking to me because she's older than me, you know, the way she talks at me sometimes, it's like she's talking at me, not to me. And I'm like, I feel like you're condescending sometimes, and you feel like I'm not smart enough to have these conversations with you. So we finally got to the meat and potatoes of what was bothering us, and now we're trying to work through on how to get back to the communication style that works best for both of us.

SPEAKER_02: 30:35

I think that's amazing. I just my deepest prayer for anybody that's listening to this is to again have these conversations. There's so much magic that happens in uncomfortable conversations, and when you're vulnerable and when you're open, you not your judgment falls away, and then you step into curiosity and genuinely trying to understand the other person. And what is, I mean, what is life about anyway? It's it's nobody's perfect, you know. I could do something that could trigger you tomorrow, but we talk about it.

SPEAKER_00: 31:06

Right. And I and I truly I love that you say that because I think that that's where I'm heading in my life, where I've started noticing and like going forward with dating and friendships, like if someone, you know, if if you communicate your needs and they're still not listening, and that's the next topic we're gonna jump into is the red flags, then I think we have to start paying attention to patterns. But I also I also think that when you communicate your needs to someone, if they genuinely don't care to fix it and have those hard conversations, that in itself is a red flag because I know that it's hard to listen to something about yourself that you do because we're humans and we're very self-centered. So it's very hard to hear, Jonna. I don't like when you do that because to me it sounds like this. That's hard because you you want in your mind, you're like, but I'm not doing it intentionally, you know, and you're like, here I am doing it again. I just did it again, you know. And so I think that if someone like, and that's what me and her talked about, we were both like, I really genuinely care about you. Like, I want you in my life. How do we fix this so that we can move forward in our relationship together?

SPEAKER_02: 32:10

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's amazing. Yeah. I feel like both of you letting your guards down and coming to each other with vulnerability. I'm sure there was some fear even before this conversation. Oh, how is this gonna go? How are they gonna take it? And again, we're saying this and we're talking about it in the podcast, and we say you we ask you to do this, and it's not gonna be the absence of fear or discomfort. You are going to be uncomfortable to have the uncomfortable conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 32:39

Yeah, right. And I'm not scared. And like I, and maybe this is wrong of me to say, but where I'm at in my life, which I have the right to change my mind in the future, I'm starting to believe that if someone doesn't genuinely care enough to change their behavior, not for you, but because they care about how the communication's going or the relationship's going, then they don't. They they they just don't. They just I don't know how to say it any nicer. They just don't.

SPEAKER_02: 33:07

They don't. I have a three-strike system, and I think I've talked to you about it. I I need to get mine down to three.

SPEAKER_00: 33:14

I think I'm at 300 right now.

SPEAKER_02: 33:17

Girl, I used to be 300. I try to communicate with you, I try to reason with you two to three times, and then after that, if there is no change in the behavior, then it is toxic because then I am choosing after that point to be disrespected actively. And I am not asking you to say, have a three-strike system. Maybe you have a one-strike system, maybe you have a five-strike system. Again, this is different for everybody based on your tolerance, but you want to make sure that you want to communicate if something is bothering you.

SPEAKER_00: 33:52

I'm gonna say a caveat to that though. Yeah, because I do have a friend that has a one-strike system and I think it's a little rigid. Because I also think that people are not gonna change overnight because depending on their age, they've had that many years of that um personality trait or whatever. So I think that if you see a true attempt, yeah, that's progress. But if you're seeing just manipulative behavior to try to be like, oh, I'm just gonna, you know, do this for a couple weeks and get her off my back, that's different. That's moving into the next topic, which is the real red flags.

SPEAKER_02: 34:30

Yeah. So what are the real red flags? I mean, for me, it would definitely be once I have communicated vulnerably to a person about how I feel and my communication is on point. And I've told, like, again, been vulnerable, told them maybe once or twice, and then the behavior doesn't change. For me, that is toxic. For me, that is a red flag because they are actively showing in their behavior that they don't respect me. Again, guys, behavior is a language, more than words. Please start seeing patterns, right?

SPEAKER_00: 34:59

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I guess I'm just saying, like, because I know how hard it was for me to change from being so anxious and so impulsive. It took me quite a few years. But with that being said, I caught I would catch myself and I'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm doing it again. You know, so I like I think there there are ways, and I think that you have that gut reaction that you I think most of the time, unless they're really good at it, you can kind of discern between the manipulation tactic, like you know, how people will just change for a couple of weeks to get you off their back, versus I'm really trying here, but you're gonna have to give me a little grace to kind of get with it.

SPEAKER_02: 35:38

Yeah, absolutely. So obviously that's the next red flag, right? When you communicate with them, are they truly realizing that this is something that they need to reflect on, that they need to change for themselves? Or are they just doing this to keep you in their lives temporarily so that you get off their backs? You really want to watch this, guys. Like, you know, like I can't say you're gonna have the answer in 24 hours. You have to observe to see if they are actually sticking to their word.

SPEAKER_00: 36:07

Right. And then also, like you like you mentioned, like that consistent disrespect of boundary. So if you've put up a boundary or you've told them like this is this is a thing for me, and they keep continuously going over it just to test you to see if you're gonna walk away, that also is a red flag because people, if they they shouldn't keep testing you to see how far they can push you until you're gone.

SPEAKER_02: 36:30

Right. Right. And this is the thing. We realize that sometimes pushing somebody and testing them to see if they still stick around is a trauma response. But this episode is not about trauma.

SPEAKER_00: 36:41

Yeah, because I mean, I I'll be I'll be honest, I I used to do that. I would I would used to push people away so that I wouldn't eventually get hurt in the end. But I also that that was completely different than than like constantly being like what's a good example of testing a boundary? Like, um let's say you're in a long-term relationship and I'm trying to think of something because I haven't been in a relationship in a long time. Um, like like let's say they don't text you when they're coming home or something, and you're you you they know that you're a highly anxious person and you stand up worrying and you're like, hey, I would like I don't care that you're out. Can you please just let me know that you're safe and you're okay? And you have to say that a hundred times, and then they're just keep doing it, and you just keep saying it. So, like, where's the boundary?

SPEAKER_02: 37:27

Where's the boundary? Exactly. Where's the respect? Exactly. Exactly. And this can happen again. We're not talking just one dynamic, right? Friendship, relationships, coworker relationships, family. This can happen in different places. So one pattern that you really want to see is how they how they're taking feedback and if there's like implementation of the feedback. And if there isn't, then I mean you have the answer.

SPEAKER_00: 37:51

Right. And then of course, we know the ones that the big buzzword all around right now is gaslighting um or minimizing your reality, which yes, it is a huge buzzword, but I do feel like now that we know what gaslighting is, it we can recognize it a little bit better. Um, when someone's basically telling you that something didn't happen that happened to kind of save face in the moment.

SPEAKER_02: 38:16

Right. Right. Yeah. And it's so interesting you brought that up because a few months ago, I had to politely call somebody out and say, I feel like you are gaslighting me in this conversation. And again, when I call someone out, I'm so gentle. I'm like, I don't want to say that you're doing it consciously, but this is how my body is taking this as a response. And then immediately they were like, What is gaslighting? And then so I actually told them the definition. I said, This is gaslighting when you minimize my experience, or you say that I'm overthinking this, and you're, I don't know, invalidating the intensity of the experience. You're crazy, you're overthinking. Yeah, that's gaslighting. And then they genuinely apologized, and they said, I did not know that I was doing that. I am so sorry. And I have not had an issue with that person after that.

SPEAKER_00: 39:08

Yeah. So, for a good example, if anyone doesn't know what gaslighting is, so like the conversation I talked about with my friend earlier that went really well, and she acknowledged my feelings and you know, said that she was sorry if she did anything. Had the conversation gone the opposite way, this did not happen. Let me just put this out there because I'm not trying to start a fight. But like, had the conversation, like I expressed my feelings and she was like, I don't know what you're talking about. You're not being left out of this friendship. That is gaslighting because you're minimizing someone else's reality. Now, we all know that perception is reality. That doesn't make it real all the time. That makes it the story that you live in. So that's where good communication comes in with vulnerable conversation. Yes, it's hard. Yes, you may start sweating. Yes, your heart may start beating really fast. But at the end of the day, you're not gonna get to the meat and the potatoes of what's going on if you don't have those conversations. And then you're gonna stay warped in this reality that may or may not be completely because no one's no one's reality is a hundred percent the truth.

SPEAKER_02: 40:07

Nobody, nobody. It's a story, and it's a story that is fitting your perception of that person.

SPEAKER_00: 40:12

And what's that saying? Like, there's your side, my side, and the truth.

SPEAKER_02: 40:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:17

So, like, unless you're truly with someone who is truly narcissistic, who is or personality disorder, or bipolar, like we're not talking about that. We're talking about just in general, normal, everyday conversation. With people.

SPEAKER_02: 40:30

Right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:31

And then the last one for the real red flags is the manipulation that can be disguised as jokes. So this is what you tell me if this is true, because someone told me this advice a long time ago, that there is a little truth in every joke.

SPEAKER_02: 40:46

I in my bones believe that.

SPEAKER_00: 40:49

Because I think when we joke, like whether it be, you know, about our bodies or whatever, I think that we have there's a little bit of something that we think is really there, but we try to make light of it because we want someone to tell us it's not true.

SPEAKER_02: 41:03

Exactly. We want someone to tell us it's not true. We I think also add humor to reduce the intensity to make it less awkward, because being serious sometimes can be labeled as she's so awkward or she's so intense or she's so deep, it's too much. So we just say, ha ha joking. But behind every haha joking, there is some reality to it that they believe that it's true.

SPEAKER_00: 41:26

And then also, like, yes, jokes are great, but sometimes they don't land. And if you're picking up on that, that that joke is not landing with that person, or it may be hurting their feelings because maybe you've hit a trigger you didn't know about or whatever it may be. I think instead of doubling down on it, like, because that would be a red flag to double down on something, because then you're you're hurting someone's feelings intently versus saying, Hey, you know what? Sorry, this was meant to be a joke, it's not landing. I can tell you're upset. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02: 41:57

You know, yeah. And I and this is so important because this has happened to me before, it's happened to many people, and talk to them about this multiple times, which is when you're talking to somebody and saying that, hey, when you said this, this really affected my feelings. And they just said, You can't uh learn how to take a joke, like you don't know how to take a joke. I was just joking.

SPEAKER_00: 42:24

Well, that's never that's two red flags in one that's gaslighting and that's manipulation.

SPEAKER_02: 42:30

Fully, yeah, fully. I have unfortunately, I hate to say that I have been a victim of that for many years. Yeah. Uh somebody that I used to be with, and to a point where I started believing sadly that I couldn't take a joke, and then I started realizing actually that was not funny.

SPEAKER_00: 42:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, because sometimes jokes are really mean, like they're really mean, and then people want to be like, ha ha ha, you're not your feelings are not hurt, right? And you're like, that was really mean. Like now I understand because I have a very dark sense of humor, you know, working in the ER and stuff like that. So sometimes my friends have to look at me and go, Jonna, that just wasn't funny. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, it's almost like I have like you know how like British people have like a dark sense of humor, and like Americans like a lot of times are like, what? And you're like, no, this is funny, ha ha, because I'm from br you know, from England or whatever. And you're just like, I think sometimes that's how I come across to my friends because my friends will just look at me like that that no, that that didn't, and I'm like, oh, but see, me and my friends have been friends for a really long time. So I think that they've kind of, you know, they're it's it's easier communicated to where they're like, no, just not.

SPEAKER_02: 43:41

1000%. And also there is a big difference because when you do do that and when they do say it, you take it, like you accept it, you understand it, you empathize with it, you don't gaslight them.

SPEAKER_00: 43:52

Right. Or or I'll say the joke and I can tell nobody's laughed. I'm like, oh, okay. Wasn't funny, huh? My bad. Sorry. So I'll immediately already catch it on myself.

SPEAKER_02: 44:02

Yeah, I will say, uh, I mean, I'm not we're not close to ending this episode, but I will say some things that I conclude just from talking to you about this for a while now is that when you uh talk about your feelings, when you express how you feel, and they don't take it, they don't respect it, that is toxic. It doesn't matter if you've been friends with them for 35 years, it's your mother, it's your it doesn't matter, guys. It just it's not healthy.

SPEAKER_00: 44:30

It's not it's not, it's not, and and that's not to say that I'm trying to say like never mind, I'm not gonna even put that out there. Anyways, moving on. So we also wanted to touch briefly, I know we've kind of intermingled like relationships and friendships, but like more specifically, because we don't talk about friendships enough. We we mostly talk about dating, um, like friendship red flags that you know maybe get confused with what could be normal behavior in a friendship. Um, and some like some red flags would be one-sided emotional labor, competitiveness, mass as support, only reaching out when they need something, um subtle resentment or passive aggression, making you feel small when you grow, lack of curiosity about your inner world, and then not red flags that are just human nature, and we're gonna talk about all this after listening, is friends that are going quiet during hard seasons. We kind of already touched on that a little bit. Um, not being able to meet every emotional need that you have, outgrowing dynamics naturally, and then different communication styles. Oh, I love that one. Different communication. Which, you know, I have a very different communication style than a lot of my friends. I over-communicate, I communicate too much, I can be a little much at times, and I know that. But I also think that that's just my personality, and I'm not just chucking it up to be like, that's just me. I think that I've also worked on it over the years, and it's gotten literally 80%. Like I said, it's it's so much better than when I was in my 20s. People would have been like, hell no.

SPEAKER_02: 46:05

It's interesting. I want to talk a little bit about that, if you don't mind going backwards to the communication style, because something really powerful came up. Is I used to have this judgment in my 20s that if somebody doesn't communicate the way I communicate, then they're toxic or they're not good enough or they're not a good friend. And then when did I learn that I was in the wrong when I'm in my 30s? Because everybody's communication style is different. For example, let me let me let you in on a little inside scoop of my life. I cannot handle phone calls. Yes, I can't. I can't, you know, I talk on the phone with maybe three people. Yeah, three people have three or four have actual real estate to call me and expect me to pick up or talk on the phone for a significant period of time. Yeah, yeah. To call me on a Tuesday afternoon at 2 p.m. with no emergencies to randomly catch up. I am sorry, I may not pick up the phone. I love that you just said that. Yeah, and the reason I'm not picking up is not because I think that better than you, it's not because I'm busier than you. It has nothing to do with it. For me, my think about it this way: a phone is being charged. It's like taking the phone and completely draining its charge. That is how it feels for me when somebody calls me and demands my attention to chat. However, if they say, Hey, do you want to talk on Friday at 8 p.m.? Do you want to catch up this Saturday? That's perfect because I'm prepared for that, right? But I can't do phone calls. And that itself is a fundamental different style of communication that I had to communicate with my cousins and some people back home, friends I've known for a decade, that hey, I'm sorry that when you call me, I'm not able to pick up and I don't want you to think of it as disrespect.

SPEAKER_00: 47:58

Give me just a second. Something just happened to my headphones. All right, sorry, guys, my microphone just did something, so the audio may be a little bit different, but it just went out or something. I don't know. Mid. But no, I love that you said that because me and my aunt literally just had that conversation on the phone before this podcast. She was like, we were talking about our communication styles and stuff, and she was like, You call me, you know, to vent and stuff like that, but I'm used to people calling and being like, Hey, how's your day? How's this? How's that? I said, that's not what I do. I said, those are texting conversations. I need advice, you know. I was like, that's what I do with my friends. I was like, we go to lunch to have the hey, how are you? What's going on kind of conversations? And she's like, Yeah, because but we're also from very different generations. Like, she's almost 70 years old. I'm, you know, almost 40. So there's a 30-year gap between us.

SPEAKER_02: 48:53

Yeah. No, I agree with that. And so I had to have conversations like this because and this doesn't mean that them needing to connect with me on the phone and they're wrong or they're asking for too much, or I'm it doesn't mean anything, it just means that we are different and we have to find a common medium on which is comfortable for everyone. And get this common medium sometimes means a little bit of compromise, and that's okay. Compromise is not bad. Meeting someone in the middle is not bad. You can't just be like, they have to meet all my needs, or they're out and that's a red flag, or that's toxic. No.

SPEAKER_00: 49:27

And I believe that some people, and I don't obviously I can't like make assumptions about other people's belief system, but sometimes it feels like it comes across that when you're trying to ask for compromise, that they feel like you're attacking their personality or telling them that they must change or they need to change because they're not quote unquote good enough. But that's not what it is. Like we all, every single one of us, anybody listening to this, me, you, mean, you, we all can make rooms for improvement every single day.

SPEAKER_02: 49:55

Every single day. Nobody's perfect. I've never once woken up and thought, oh, I am the perfect version of who I no. No, it's a work in progress every day.

SPEAKER_00: 50:05

Right. And I hope that there's certain things, like obviously, there's certain things about my personality that I want to take with me forever, but then there's certain things that I know about my own personality that I'm like, you know what? I hope I grow out of this.

SPEAKER_02: 50:17

Yeah, and yeah, absolutely. And you know, this other thing also is communicating where you're at. I think that is now we're not gonna talk about uh green flags, but this is one green flag that I want to throw at, which you can implement is when you're going through a transition, communicate to your friend, hey, I know that you're going through this, I'm going through shit, and I can't be there in a way that you need. That doesn't mean I don't love you. And this is what I can do.

unknown: 50:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 50:49

And that's the key.

SPEAKER_00: 50:50

And I love that you said that because I think a friend sent me a TikTok, or maybe I saw that they reposted a TikTok saying that true friendships will be there for you no matter what you're going through. And yes, I agree, but I also don't agree because, like you said, like I feel like everyone's capacity or container that they have for the moment in their friendships differs by whatever's going in their life. Now, I think what you said was perfect by communicating that transition versus ghosting them and not picking up the phone. Like your friend may be going through something really hard, and you may be too, but if you don't communicate that, they just take it as you're not there for me. I'm going through one of the hardest times in my life where you could have, you could have been going like the death of a parent, and they could be thinking that about you or whatever, and you didn't communicate like, hey, like I want to be there for you. I will do everything I can, but just know my container is very low right now.

SPEAKER_02: 51:46

Exactly. And I do this a lot with my roommate. We do this so well with each other to not get overstimulated. Whenever she comes to talk to me or when I talk to her, we just openly say, Girl, I got nothing. I got nothing on me today. Can we talk about this tomorrow? I got and I sometimes I'll say I'm listening, but I can't give anything because I'm so drained. But tomorrow I'll be able to say something.

SPEAKER_00: 52:12

Well, and sometimes me and you have to do that with the podcast. Like, I'll be wanting to record, and you're like, Hey, I can't, or you vice versa. I'll be like, I got nothing. My energy is so low that this podcast would be awful right now.

SPEAKER_02: 52:22

Yeah, and it's so interesting because we have a very unique dynamic, which is we started out with like client relationship and client coach relationship, and then transitioned to, oh, we'll do multiple podcasts, and then transition to being friends. But I feel like we've never communicated what we really need from each other in the friendship. And the fact that this is the thing, the reason why I'm not worried about it is because I know that you're gonna be transparent. Yeah, that's why there's so much trust that I have in you that it's like if you need something from me, you're gonna tell me. And if I vice versa, you I'll be like, hey, Jonah, like, can you show up a little more in this aspect and things like that? And so what we're trying to tell here to you guys is that when people can show up in certain seasons or people have different communication styles, people are going through trauma, it doesn't automatically become toxic or red flags.

SPEAKER_00: 53:18

Right, right. I agree. So that leads us to the final point, and that's the questions to ask instead of is this a red flag? Is this toxic? The questions really become is this a pattern or is it just a phase?

SPEAKER_01: 53:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 53:33

Have I communicated what I need clearly, concisely? Do I feel unsafe or is this just uncomfortable? Is this activating a wound or revealing a truth? And we will leave you with that to think about, folks.

SPEAKER_02: 53:53

We will, we really will. It's such a it's such a good prompt to think about. You can even journal on it. I feel like a lot of things would come up.

SPEAKER_00: 53:59

Yeah, for sure. No, you always come up with great topics, Minu. Thank you for bringing that because it was a great one that needed to be said. And we will be back. Um, I don't know if we're gonna do one for Christmas Eve or not. We haven't discussed it, we may, but we are definitely bringing back some new year stuff. We've already recorded it. That's that one's gonna be a great one. So stay tuned for a new year, new beginning that obviously was menu's topic. And yeah, until next time, guys. Bye. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 54:29

Bye.