Babbling About: The Dark Side of Self Awareness (Part I)

#223: You’ve done the therapy. You know your triggers. You can explain your attachment style, your nervous system, and your childhood wounds in perfect language. So why do you still feel stuck?

We sit down with Meenu to talk about the shadow side of self-awareness and healing culture, especially in the age of social media where every emotion gets labeled and every pattern becomes content. We dig into how self-diagnosis can turn into identity attachment, why “I’m anxious” can quietly become a life sentence, and how small language shifts like “this is showing up for me right now” can create real room for change. We also get honest about the ways hyper self-awareness can become a form of control, pulling us into our heads and away from our bodies.

From anxious attachment spirals to the difference between intuition and ego, we break down what it looks like to move from intellectualizing to embodiment. We talk about nervous system regulation, feeling your feelings instead of researching them, and how relationships work best when both people meet each other halfway without coddling or dismissing. We also explore how healing can turn into perfectionism, and why sometimes the most powerful move is to pause, zoom out, and let yourself live.

If this conversation helps you, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s deep in the self-improvement loop, and leave a review. What label are you ready to loosen your grip on?

Transcript

The Shadow Side Of Healing

Johnna 0:00

What is up, everyone? Welcome back to another episode of the Babbles Nonsense podcast. And today, Min Yu is joining us back, and her podcast is Transcend into Wellness. And on today's episode, we are going to do something a little different because we're talking about something that we feel a lot of people are quietly struggling with right now. And that is the shadow side of self-awareness and healing culture. Because somewhere along the way, a lot of us became incredibly aware of ourselves. We became aware of our triggers, attachment styles, childhood wounds, nervous systems, trauma responses, and patterns. And to be clear, being self-aware is very important. Therapy is important and healing is important. But we also think that there's a conversation that doesn't get talked about enough, which is can we become so self-aware that we stop actually living? Can healing become another form of perfectionism? Can self-awareness become identity attachment? Can constantly analyzing ourselves create anxiety instead of peace? Because we think a lot of people right now are intellectually aware of everything, but becoming emotionally exhausted. We can explain our wounds beautifully, we can identify where our behaviors come from, and we can use all the therapy language in the world. But some of us are still deeply anxious, deeply dysregulated, deeply disconnected, and honestly, we're just stuck. And social media has amplified this even more. Now everyone is diagnosing themselves, labeling themselves, branding themselves around trauma and turning every emotional experience, well, into content. So today we wanted to have a real conversation about the difference between awareness and embodiment, between understanding yourself and actually healing, between constantly dissecting yourself and finally allowing yourself to live. Because maybe healing is not supposed to feel like a lifelong performance review of your personality. Maybe real healing is actually simpler than we think. And of course, we got in tangents on some of these, and we started babbling around, and we really thought this topic was important and we wanted to spend time on it. So we're turning this into a part one and a part two. So we're gonna get into part one right now. Stay tuned. All right, guys, we are back. Min You is here. I know y'all have been waiting for that for so long. It has been so long since we've collaborated. And honestly, like the content on my end has hit a null without you. So thank you, Min Yu, for coming back.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

And you know what's interesting is even it's been the same for me too, because I think after 120 episodes, you're just you're you kind of want to say the same things in different ways, and then you want something fresh, you want a new perspective, you want somebody else's um knowledge and view on things, even though it's the same thing. So thank you because I was also not releasing episodes in the last few weeks because uh I think I want to like focus more on quality versus quantity anyway. That's the whole point, right?

Johnna 3:18

So when I just love like doing podcasts with other people, I've always enjoyed interviewing over solo episodes. Not that I don't enjoy solo episodes, but just having that other perspective to balance things off of. You're like, oh, that just triggers this thought, and that just triggers this thought, and then me and you do that very well with each other. So it's always a pleasure to do podcasts with you. Thank you, likewise. But of course, this episode was your amazing topic that just hits home with everything right now, and how I guess trends of buzzwords and social media and things, how we all define things like self-awareness becoming your identity and you know being hyper self-aware of everything. So I just want to kind of dive on into it and kind of get your opinion because I have a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Oh, yeah, girl. How would you define we're really gonna get into it?

Johnna 4:08

And how would you define like this episode? Like, I don't even know how to like me and you do a lot of like emotions and we do a lot of live coaching and we do a lot of these things, but more so this episode is how we're getting too involved in diagnosing and life coaching and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Exactly. It's almost, I would call it the dark side of over um fixating or the dark side of self-awareness because I think self-awareness is such a great tool, but with social media and books and podcasts, everything is now a diagnosis.

Johnna 4:43

And coming from the medical side of things, like you know, that's what we want to do, right? Well, what's wrong with me? Tell me, give me that ACD tin code, give me that diagnosis, and it's like right. Well, maybe there's not one there.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Oh yeah, oh yeah, and I'm also like catching my clients when they automatically start diagnosing themselves and they're like, Oh, maybe I have tendencies of BPD, and I'm just like, hold on, you know, don't go into chat GBT and start typing it all in. And and and it's also if you think about it, it's a just a way, another way of getting control or security. And I feel like fundamentally that's why we've kind of gotten into the rabbit hole of doing that.

Johnna 5:23

Agreed, agreed, because we want to know like why we're doing something, because we are in this huge self-awareness generation, which is great to a scent. Like, you know, like it's like, okay, it's wonderful that you want to identify what's going on in yourself where you can maybe work on yourself, but then everything in in in extremes, like we do we tend to do everything in extremes. I matter if it's like okay, now we're like, for example, the whole non-alcohol movement right now. Great, it's healthy, that's great. Alcohol is really not the most healthy thing for you, but it's almost like everything in this generation is like, let's take it to the max, let's take it to an extreme. Like, oh, we're not gonna drink alcohol, we're gonna be self-aware, we're gonna go to therapy every other day, we're gonna do all these things, which is again, it's kind of hard to like put a negative connotation on that when it's supposed to be such a positive thing.

When Labels Become Your Identity

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Right. I I completely agree. I feel like the pendulum has swung the other way, where our parent generation was like, I don't care what I am, I have nothing wrong with me, I'm fine just the way they are, which which can also kind of be like narcissistic, which is so funny. We're not supposed to diagnose, but you know, you know what I mean. Plus word, trigger word. I know trigger words. So it we've swung the pendulum from absolutely not having any help for mental health or any diagnosis at all to now wanting to diagnose every single thing. So we're going to now dive in and identify some of the dark sides of self-awareness. And if you, you know, are in our generation or even the previous generation, it doesn't matter. But if you can relate to some of these things, you'll notice that there are lots of trends going on online where everybody is just calling themselves with names, which is the first thing that I want to talk about is like how self-awareness can become an attachment to identity, right? Um, people have started saying, I'm anxious, I'm avoidant, um, oh, I'm a detached person, I'm a people pleaser, I'm an empath. And yes, you may be all those things or one of those things or many of those things, but what you are achieving by labeling is basically you putting yourself in a box. Right. And you're trying to gain more control and more security of the situation. You're trying to feel more safe, but the problem is you're also shrinking yourself at the same time by saying that, okay, just because I'm an empath, I can't experience this, just because I'm a people bleaser, I can't do all those things, I can't set up boundaries. So the meaning that you attach to the labels becomes more problematic than the labels themselves.

Johnna 8:07

Right. And I think that what you said is just so real, but then it also has this other thought behind it that when you learn about these things, whether it be on social media from an influencer or TikToker or whatnot, not saying that they may not understand and know those things, but not having the skills to therapize or teach or life coach or things like that, where yes, it's wonderful to know that you're those things. But also, like I remember in sessions with you, like even though you are those things, it doesn't define who you are. And really, you're only needing to be self-aware that those things are in your vocabulary or your personality traits so that you can work on them and move away from them.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

1000%. It's it's it's so funny. It's uh one of the one of the people that I know said, I'm a Gemini, so I can't keep secrets. I'm just like, hold on, you're just no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no, no, you know that's that's what I mean when I say like they make it their identity, right? And it's like, oh, I'm anxious, so that's just who and what you're doing. And I I like to work with the subconscious a lot. So when you say statements like I'm anxiously attached or I am anxious, you are telling your subconscious mind that this is it. Yeah, this is just who I am. There is no there is no way out of it, there's nothing else except from this. This is just the way it is, right? So that identification almost it becomes ingrained and it becomes almost permanent in your subconscious.

Johnna 9:40

But really, what we should be doing, like when we hear like the traits of let's just use the anxious attached, because I know I'm an anxiously attached style. That's not who I am, that's the style that I lean towards because of what I how I was raised. Right. So identifying that I'm anxiously attached is great to identify that I know that I do that. So that when I start seeing myself anxiously attached, I can be like, Wait, whoa, whoa, wait. How can I not anxiously attach and move and move towards a secure attachment style?

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Exactly. Because that is what happened with me. I used to be anxiously attached, probably six, seven years ago. And then I came to secure and then I went to avoidant. And why I'm telling you the story is because nothing is permanent. Just because you have a diagnosis, just because you're anxiously attached, doesn't mean you're anxiously attached for life. And that is who you are. That is just your attachment style. Also, depending on your partner at that time, they may just trigger that anxiety style or that attachment wound in you. That also doesn't mean that's who you are. So you got to be very careful when we diagnose ourselves, whether we're relating to an Instagram video or a TikTok video, when you are diagnosing yourself, you also want to say, okay, maybe what they're saying is true for me at the moment. Right.

Johnna 10:57

And it's good just to know, kind of like, oh, like if you want to like take like, because it's hard with um thoughts and emotions and things like that because it's different than like a medical diagnosis, right? So I have thyroid issues, I have Hashimoto's. That doesn't make me who I am, but I'm glad I know that I have it because it makes me go, oh, that makes sense why I get tired with you know this, this, and that. That makes sense why I was gaining weight here, here, and here. But what am I gonna do about it? I know I have it. Exactly. Let's optimize it, let's make it the best it can be.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Right. And that's also so powerful that you said that because with physical ailments, you are able to label it because that is an actual diagnosis. Once again, based on facts, not just feelings, facts like blood work, immense blood work and testing to know that okay, I have thyroid, my thyroid antibodies are like super high, so I have Hashimoto's, and this is this may be going on. Again, it's coming from facts, but you're also not saying that my antibodies are because they're high right now, they're going to be high throughout. Right. Once again, you're even pivoting, even in that point, even though it's physical, you're still saying, what can I do the best of my abilities so that I don't have these symptoms?

Johnna 12:09

Agreed, agreed. So, how how would you say, um, how would you say to make it more of a healthy self-awareness, like of it all? Like to still be able to like look at these things and be like, okay, maybe I can identify with some of these traits and make it more of a healthy self-awareness to move toward a healthier goal versus just saying, like, oh yep, exactly what they're saying. That's me. I'm an anxiously attached person. So now the next time I get in a fight with my partner, I'm just gonna tell them, well, I can't help it. I'm anxiously attached.

Making Patterns Temporary And Changeable

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Yeah, yep, yep. I think that you already answered this question, which is very powerful, which is yes, use them. That's why we have all the workbooks and we have everything. It's if it's going to help you get a sense of safety, there is nothing wrong in identifying with any of this. However, the next question you're gonna ask yourself is how can I be better? How can I improve? Now that I know this, now that I know that this automatically shows up for me, maybe because of childhood wounds, maybe parental things, like whatever it is, what do I do to fix this? And what am I actively working on to actually accept this, heal from this, and fix this? Right. And again, we're gonna talk about how fixating shouldn't fixing shouldn't also be an obsession, and we'll get to that when the time comes. But I think the beginning step is just saying this pattern is showing up for me right now. That doesn't mean that this is my life and that doesn't mean it's permanent. I'm glad I have the tools and the knowledge, and what can I do to improve myself? I think that is the very first step after identifying is something that I will tell my clients to do rather than using that as a crutch to be a shitty person, you know, or to not do the work, you know.

Johnna 13:52

Right. And you talked about like your subconscious hearing that, and I guess we could use nervous system subconscious kind of interchangeably. So, like if you're a subconscious or your nervous system continues to hear you say, like, I'm an actually attached person, I'm an actually attached person. How does one then reverse that so that their nervous system doesn't get caught on that or the work that they have to do to kind of get that out of their subconscious and their nervous system?

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Okay, that's a really great question. I think the first is again making it temporary. I think that's very important. It's somebody when they say I'm fat.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Well, you're fat now because of the way your life is, and because of how you eat, and because of your lack of exercise or whatever it is, right? So it's like if you're saying I'm anxiously attached, I'm anxiously attached right now. And that could be a trigger either from my childhood, that could be a trigger from the current partner that I'm dating, or my husband, or my boyfriend, anybody that is. So it's a current theme that is showing me that these are the issues that I have to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Right. So making it more present, making it more present uh day analysis rather than making it a complete diagnosis. So, for example, for your subconscious, you could say, Well, I'm having traits of anxious attachment that is showing up right now. You see how that feels versus I'm anxiously attached and I will be.

Johnna 15:18

Right. Like, and everybody's just gonna have to understand me and get over it. I mean, that would be honestly nice to say sometimes because like it would be great if we could walk through life and just be like, you know, have all these badges on our shirts. It's like I'm anxiously attached, I'm a little narcissistic, I'm this. So just walk with caution. It's all y'all's problem on how I react because I'm telling you on this shirt right here, these are the issues I have.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Exactly, exactly. And that also comes again from over-identifying, right? And it's it's I I honestly, and we've talked about this in one of our episodes, it it later becomes a little bit entitled. Yeah, you know, it's okay. I have all these diagnoses, so I want everybody around me to walk on exhals and cater to me because they don't have all this diagnosis, and I do. But they they have other things that they're probably not advertising, you know what I'm saying?

Johnna 16:10

Right, right, right, right. But I mean, like also I think sometimes maybe people not that they wear it as a badge of honor, but because that's how they've identified themselves for so long that maybe it becomes a fear of letting it go because who are you with?

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Who are you? Exactly. That's a no, that's a brilliant point because I think that to be in the unknown can be very scary for some people. So they're very afraid to again release that or heal from that, and even say, I am overcoming that, or let me actually do some work to recover from that. And instead, they'll just stay there because now there's, like I said, 20 years of being anxiously attached or 15 years of being avoidant, you're just like, okay, this is it's better for me, even though I'm shrinking, it's easier for me on my nervous system to be this way rather than change. Because if I change, who knows what else will get triggered, and who knows where else I'll be.

Johnna 17:05

And you're right, like you said, and you know how to deal with what you already know that you have because it's easy. Exactly. You know you have it, you know you functioned this way for so many years. So, like you said, like if that goes away, what what's gonna be behind it? Better, worse, indifferent?

Hyper Self-Awareness Versus Feeling

SPEAKER_02 17:18

I don't know. Indifferent, exactly, and that is scary for some people. And all I can say is I have worked with people who have done the work, and even though it is very scary and unknown, unknown is still better than putting yourself in a box. Because when you put yourself in a box, you are once again telling your subconscious mind that this is who I will be for the rest of my life, and that's very painful too, if you think about it. That's very shrinking, you're not growing, you're not evolving, you're not expanding. It's like your life force almost dims out.

Johnna 17:52

Yeah, I agree. And I liked what you said earlier because we're about to touch on it next, is that hyper self-awareness. And this is probably the box that I fall into the most when you brought this topic up. I was like, ooh, that's dung. So I'm excited about this transferring into the hyper self-awareness of like, yes, we know all this stuff, but we're kind of like dabbling into the hyper self-awareness where it's like we're constantly repeatingly telling ourselves this, we're constantly looking at this content online, we're constantly saying we have these things. So, like with the hyper self-awareness, what do you say about that? Like, how would you say someone knows that they're hyperly self-aware versus like they're just trying to be better as a person?

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Oh, that is a huge, one big sign, one very obvious elephant in the room that'll kind of give away where they're at, right? Um, and that is when they run away from feeling their feelings. Okay. So think about it this way: when you get a diagnosis or when you identify as something, right, immediately intellectualizing it keeps you away from feeling the weight of it, keeps you away from feeling disappointment, keeps you away from feeling abandoned, keeps you away from again emotions. So when it's difficult for some person to hold the emotion, feel the emotion, and process the emotion, they prefer intellectualizing it and over-diagnosing.

Johnna 19:21

I mean, that makes sense, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Because it gives them a different sense of control when they do that, so it's actually connected to control and safety. But real safety, full safety, actual safety and freedom only comes after you have felt the grief and the sadness and the fear of what it is, whatever the emotion is, right? For example, I'll give you an example. Let's say, for example, I'm anxiously attached, right? Um I'm I've not heard from my boyfriend in four hours. Okay. First, I'm thinking, okay, he's busy. And then the fourth hour kicks in, I'm spiraling. I'm like, oh my God, you know, maybe he got into a car accident, maybe this, maybe that. Maybe he's talking to somebody else, maybe he's avoiding me. And then I'm saying, yeah, of course I'm anxiously attached. I'm gonna feel this way. Now I'm Googling anxious attachment, like you know, I'm like going into the rabbit hole. Instead, what I'm supposed to do is I have to feel my feelings, right? Which is I'm scared, I'm nervous, I'm deeply uncomfortable, and I want to fucking cry.

Johnna 20:24

I want to feel like that. Because when I read this, when I read the hot when you sent this and I read the hyper self-awareness, it's like, oh, I feel like I'm hyperly self-aware because like I will see my triggers and I will be like, oh, now I can see it. And then I'm like, oh, I'm super aware of what I'm seeing now. So is that different than like so? It's good to like start seeing your triggers, but like doing this, I see what you're saying, where you're going down a spiraling rabbit hole versus being like, No, let me stop in this moment. Yeah, and realize I'm being anxiously attached.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

And also what's happening in my body? Yeah. Oh, my heart's beating too fast, my stomach is all up and knots. Oh my god, this feels deeply uncomfortable. I think I just want to fucking cry. You know, I think I just need to let out a cry or our scream or or something, or I need to move my body. Something is happening in my body that is so deeply unsettling that I immediately go to my mind and overintellectualize because that gives me a false sense of control.

Johnna 21:18

And versus just saying, I'm gonna stop these thoughts because I realize I'm being triggered right now.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yep.

Johnna 21:24

Yep. Oh, okay. So I'm not okay, so I do not fall into this category like I thought.

unknown 21:30

Good.

Johnna 21:31

Because I was like, Yes, I could spiral, but yes, I can see it. But then I also have to go, Jonna, you're you're spiraling again. Yeah. Like, stop.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah. And instead of diagnosing and asking, why is this happening to me? There is a one particular client that I worked with. She would never, never, never confront what came up for her feelings wise, any discomfort, any um grief, any sadness, anything. She would just never be able to sit with it. So she'll Be like, I wonder why that came from. I wonder where that came from. I think it came because my mom said this. I think this came because my dad ignored me at this point. I think this came when my sister snapped at me. It would always go to why is this happening to me rather than this is uncomfortable? Let me sit with this. Yeah. Let me journal about it. Let me have a good cry or a scream and move through this and just jump into again, analyzing again. It's like going to that mode again, which is giving that false sense of control.

Johnna 22:31

Do you think that people who hyperfixate or who are hyper self-aware, when they're doing that introspection, do you think it disconnects themselves from their own intuition?

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yes, and their body.

Johnna 22:45

Okay. So like they can't even like discern is this truly my intuition telling me something's bad about to happen here? Or is this just me hyperfixating on the problem and I'm making up these stories and I can't tell?

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Let me tell you a fun fact about um hyperfixation, or let's even go to ego, which is ego is kind of a hyperfixation thing because it's coming from the mind, right? Whereas intuition comes from the body, right? So um the difference is people say, Oh, I have a really bad feeling about it. This is my intuition. I have had a bad feeling about it, right? When you have a strong judgment about something that is happening, it's mostly not your intuition, it's your ego. Intuition is very random. You'll be walking and then suddenly it'll be like boom, it'll hit you. Oh, this is what's going on. You'll be opening your fridge and then it'll hit you out of nowhere. Oh, this is what's going on. You'll be making a dish and then it'll pop in randomly. Intuition doesn't pop in when you're hyper-fixating or obsessing about something.

Johnna 23:53

That okay, I love that. Love that because now that makes more sense because sometimes, like, if you get stuck on a story and you're like, This is what's going on, this is what's going on, and you think you know, it's my intuition um telling me this. And then, you know, you it's kind of hard sometimes, like in those moments to deter discern. But I love how you said like it's not just gonna keep building and sit there and being like, here, I'm knocking on your door and you're not listening.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Nope.

Johnna 24:19

It's not you're gonna know. Oh, you'll definitely know. You're gonna you're not gonna question is this my intuition or not. You're gonna be like, oh no, no, no, no. It's kind of like I guess, for example, like cheating, like how women already know, and then they're like, Let me see your phone.

unknown 24:33

Yeah.

Johnna 24:34

And but and then the guy's like, no, sorry, I shouldn't say that. Guy or girl's like, no. And then they're like, I don't need to see it. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. Exactly.

Reassurance In Relationships Without Coddling

SPEAKER_02 24:45

So think about it this way like when when we hyperfixate on something that's fueled by our mental processing of oh, that's happening, that's happening, that's happening, that's happening. That already disconnects us from the mind. I want you to think of mind being up here and the and the body being in the heart, right? So when you're over-analyzing and hyperfixating, you're not in your body, you're in your mind. And the mind is the ego.

Johnna 25:12

So what would okay, so for example, if someone does hyperfixate or, you know, is trying to be hyper, or not trying to be hyper self-aware, but is hyper-self-aware and they're trying to kind of navigate this based on this podcast that we're talking about. And they're in like a dating relationship with someone, and the guy's telling them not to worry about things, and they're he's giving them no reason not to trust them and all these other things, but the girl has that anxious attachment, and they're they're telling them those stories and looping and saying, Oh no, he's cheating, he's doing all these things, or whatever. Is it the other person's responsibility to calm those thoughts by giving a conversation, or is it the other person's responsibility to say, I'm hyperfixating again, I have to calm this down?

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Does that make sense? Okay, so that's a really yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think the first question I would ask this person who's spiraling is if they have done any work to heal from the past relationships. Because the reason that they're spiraling is showing me once again that they are not safe in their bodies, right? They have not let go of certain things that have happened in the previous relationships. So when a pattern that is a little bit similar happens, it goes into spiral. So the for person for the person that's spiraling, that would be the first question I ask, which is you're hyperfixating. So um, does that did you already do the work from previous triggers of what has shown in this pattern, right? And if they say no, then that's on the person who is spiraling to actually do the work so that they feel safe in the body. Number two, if they have done the work, if they have processed and they're still hyperfixating, then it could probably be your intuition led you to hyperfixate. Does that make sense?

Johnna 26:56

Yeah. So what if that same scenario, let's say that um it's a married couple, they got divorced and they didn't really like work through the problems before they divorced, but when they got back together, both of them had worked, I guess, individually on their issues, and they're both showing up differently and they're showing that they're changing and things like that, but those triggers still come up from their previous past relationship? Would you say it's still then the other person's responsibility, or they need to go like how then if it's the same person?

SPEAKER_02 27:31

So are you asking about the person that's being triggered, the new person, or are you asking about the person that's already been married?

Johnna 27:38

No, no, no. I'm saying, like, you have a married couple. Yeah. They have all these let let's say you have a married couple and one of them cheats. Okay, so they get divorced, but they reconcile a few years later, same same married couple. Um, they worked on themselves individually in therapy, but they never really fixed or talked about that previous incident of cheating. Okay. Let's say that now they're back together, they've reconciled, and now that overly anxious person is like, oh, I bet they're cheating again. I bet they're cheating again. But it's because uh in the first example, it was like, well, have they fixed their previous past? Well, what if the past is that same person?

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Oh, that that I mean, it's like you're walking through fire again, right? It's it's uh it's uh I mean it's a terrible idea, I would always say to like get together with your ex because X is an ex for a reason. But that just means that you have to be willing to walk through fire and trust if you want to give that a shot.

Johnna 28:38

Right. And so, but in that same scenario, would you say like it's both their responsibilities to make the other one feel comfortable because of the past or what they have? Absolutely, absolutely versus like one of them, like if one of them is anxious, then to say, well, you got to work on your anxiety or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

I think if one person is anxious, this is the thing. If two people are self-aware, one person knows they're anxious, one person knows they're secure, when you are in a relationship and you're aware of these patterns, it's always good to be aware to meet each other halfway. Right. Right. So if a secure person who loves their partner is with an anxious person, then you know that your partner normally tends to the anxiety style. So you you can let them know when you're gonna come home. You can send them a text when you're on the way, you can send them a text when they're delaying. Like there is a way to like meet each other halfway rather than completely coddling each other, if that makes sense.

Johnna 29:33

Or completely coddling or completely dismissing the other person's feelings, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yeah, because you don't do that either in relationships, you work together, you don't say, Oh, I don't care that this is who you are, or I don't care that this is your trauma.

Johnna 29:45

Right. And it's funny that we're talking about social media influencers. Like, I actually, like before this, like you know, whenever you talk about something, your phone picks it up. I have now all this um content on my TikTok, and this guy was like, if you know your partner is an overthinker or an anxious person, yeah, what does it hurt to just do a little extra? It doesn't hurt you to do that to make them feel secure. Yeah, but and I've never understood that it doesn't take any extra to just make them feel secure. But like some men that I've had friends do this or people in relationships do this, or they're like, I'm not doing that. Like they need to get over it, they need to stop being so anxious. And I'm like, But what does that say about the other person?

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Yeah, I mean, that shows that you're not willing to accept it. It's uh that shows you're not willing to accept certain baggages that the other person has, right? You know what I'm saying? And it's it's very actually very insensitive, is what I'll say. I mean, I think it could also they could also be saying that because they want to avoid coddling them. I get the intention in which they would not want to do that at all because they're worried that if they send this one message, then it'll be a continuous thing that they have to keep doing. Does that make sense?

Johnna 30:53

Right, yeah, and I and I mean I get it too. Like I know I think it's both, right? Like there should be a balance. Like the anxious person is gonna have to obviously work on their triggers and work work on themselves just like we're talking about, like stop hyperfixating, stop right, you know, stop being like, Oh, I'm so self-aware, I have this attachment style, and that's all no, that's not where you stop. You work on it, but the other person also has to kind of give a little bit and say, you know, while you work on it, right? We're gonna have to have a compromise on what I'm willing to do and what I'm not. Here's my boundaries.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Right. And also think about it this way at the risk of not diagnosing. That if a person is saying, I absolutely don't want to do that, they could also be very dismissive avoidant. True, true, true, true, true. Because if you're actually secure, what would hurt you so much by letting me know when you'll be home or by letting me know where, like, what would what is so painful about a two-second, five-second message?

Johnna 31:44

Right, I agree. I agree 1000%. Yeah, would you would you say that being super hyper self-aware is the same as when people are intellectualizing their emotions? Yes, or it's the same, very, very similar, very similar.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Because again, remember the mind and the body disconnection, when it's in the mind and it's a continuous loop in the mind, whether that's overintellectualization or hyperfixating on hyper-awareness or whatever, it's happening in the mind, which means you're disconnected from the body.

Johnna 32:12

And a lot of times very highly intellectual people typically do hyperfixate because they do because they're logical, they're aware, so they tend to overthink and they they kind of know the situation. Yep. Um, so how would you say, like, if someone is like super highly articulate, how how are those people who are so articulate, logical, smart get stuck in their emotions when they when they're smart, they know that they're in their emotions.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

I just feel like we are not taught how to regulate, we are not taught tools, right? So, for example, a simple example would be um when a child is crying and a parent comes in and says, Stop crying, right? That's now you're telling the child feeling your feelings is a bad thing, right? And then let's say in another situation, a child is crying and the parent doesn't say, like the healthy response, let me tell you what the healthy healthy response would be like, I see that you're crying. It's okay to feel your feelings. When you're done feeling your feelings, you can let mommy know how you're feeling or what comes up for you. Now that's a healthy response. Ignoring them is bad, right? Immediately coddling them is bad, and then immediately disrupting them is bad. So any of these things can lead to you not knowing how to regulate your feelings, right? So you can be the most intelligent person, the most logical person, you can analyze everything, but that doesn't mean you have actually gotten in touch with your body and released just your trauma, which is why they say the trauma lives in the body. The body keeps the score. It's not the mind, it's the body, because if you haven't actually processed it, the story still lives in the body. So no amount of um, oh, I'm a narcissist, oh, I have BPD, I have this, can actually heal what the body is holding on to unless you're really willing to like feel your feelings. Right.

Johnna 34:18

And it's funny. So, like you gave an example where someone's crying and then the you know, the parent can come in and like see that. What about an example? Like, I actually talked about this in therapy today. So, like I had a memory of my mom having to work three jobs, like there was nothing she could do about that. And I had a memory where she was going back to work or something, and I was being left with either my aunt or a babysitter, I can't remember, and I was just crying, like I want my mom to be here. And I think that's we were kind of getting like, where did this anxiety and anxious attachment start? And I was like, but that's not something she can. It's not like she was leaving to go to the club every night, right? Like she was going to work to make ends meet. So, like, there's things that parents can't control, and obviously things can happen. So, how do you process that type of emotion and anxiety? Because my mom always came home.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Yeah, and I think that has a lot to do with like acceptance and forgiveness, right? Because it's not that she did something wrong, it's just that she was not able to cater to your needs at that time when you needed them. It's just terrible timing, right? Right? When you needed it, she couldn't give that to you. When you needed it desperately, it wasn't there. So, because of that, that started, but you can't entirely blame her because again, she didn't know better. That's what she had to do. So, again, it comes with can I give myself grace and my mom grace for doing the best that she knew at that time?

Johnna 35:40

But like I've noticed like my triggers like in adulthood, like when people can't give me emotionally what I need at that moment, like it's a you know, that's when I notice it now, and I'm just starting to connect that. Yeah, and I'm like, so when we talk about like our body keeps a score, like I don't know how you heal something that somebody couldn't control. Yeah, you know, like it's different than if your parents come in and they're screaming at you crying, and you're like, oh, that's why I don't handle emotions well, because I was told not to have emotions. You know what I'm saying? That's how the difference there is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

I totally get it. I still feel that you can't connect everything again. This is also where again intellectualizing intellectualizing, you're doing it again, and I feel like that's a good story that helped you understand why. Now it's time to drop the story and come back to your body.

Johnna 36:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

And what am I feeling right now? I'm feeling frustrated that my friend is not able to give me the emotional attention that I need. Okay. Can I be with the frustration?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Can I journal through the frustration? Can I tap it out? Can I breathe through it? Can I cry through this frustration instead of trying to go and fix the past or trying to heal the past or make sense of the past? You see that? Yeah, yeah. That's that's also hyperfixating instead of actually healing.

Healing As Perfectionism And Control

Johnna 36:58

Okay, so we're going back to I am in that box. Yes. I was in it, I was out of it. Now I'm back in the box. Got it. Okay. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. We got a good example there. Yes. All right. So, how can healing like become another form of someone trying to be perfect, perfectionism? Because we do, you know, that's I'm, you know, type A personality, and you just want everything to be perfect. So how can, you know, trying to heal all the time make you not heal your perfectionism or not heal your. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 37:32

I think you have to, um, and I'm gonna say you, I'm saying this to all perfectionists that are listening to this. I think you have to come to terms with the fact that healing is an everlasting journey.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

A.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

So you're never going to be healed. It is never going to feel good enough. So when you come to terms with the fact that I'm never going to be quote unquote healed and it's never going to feel complete or good enough, then you can embrace that, okay, this is something that I do intermittently as things come up. Now, as things come up and as I do this, can I just choose to show up in the best of my abilities? Instead of intellectualizing, instead of labeling, can I make it more of a habit to sit with myself for it to be in my body without trying to understand why or trying to fix it?

Johnna 38:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Don't try to fix it, just sit with it.

Johnna 38:27

Okay. And then all that makes sense. But if someone is like a perfectionist and then they're trying to like research all the stuff and they hyperfixate on it, how do they not make it, since healing is never really an ending journey, like it's a lifelong journey? How do they not make that a never-ending self-improvement project?

SPEAKER_02 38:46

I think you have to understand that it will be a never-ending self-improvement project, and there is nothing wrong with that. So again, you have to ask yourself, is this project ruining me or is this project serving me? For example, for me, I'm a very growth-oriented person. So I don't feel like I'm actually done. I don't feel like I'm actually healed. I just know that in different seasons, there are different demands that's going to be asked of me to heal at a different capacity. But if I were a person that's like, it's not enough, it's not enough, I'm not enough, I'm not enough. I'm a fixating intellectual advocate. You know, yeah, if if I'm a person that actually does these things, it's time to step away from everything. Stop the journaling, stop everything, stop the therapy, step away from everything and just don't do anything for a few days and zoom out and look at your life as to how much you've grown in the last five years, how much have you grown in the last one year, how much have you grown in the last three years? Because what's happening is you're getting caught up in the details of every day and what you're doing and the nitty-gritties of it not being enough, that you're actually not able to see the big picture.

Johnna 39:52

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

So you need to actually stop everything and detach and zoom out and be like, oh, okay. I was just being ungrateful that I have come so far. I was just not willing to acknowledge that these things have actually happened and I have made progress. I was just not willing to do that. I was just in that address.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

And that's that's a very like nervous system dysregulation. It's almost being unwilling to again sit with yourself. And it's saying instead of sitting with myself, I'm just gonna do more.

Johnna 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

I'm just gonna focus more and fixate more and try to find another problem when there is none.

Johnna 40:33

That makes sense because like you you get more comfortable in fixing versus just being like, oh, I'm actually good for now.

SPEAKER_02 40:40

Yeah.

Johnna 40:41

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

I'm actually good for now, and maybe for today this is enough. Maybe I'll start looking at other things that are good today. Oh, the sun is shining bright. Oh, two of my friends reached out today. Oh, I had a favorite meal today that I really enjoyed. I was able to spend some time with my dog or my cat. Start pivoting from that because again, that's also a form of hyperfixating, right? So it's like come out of I need to heal everything right now to okay, I've done enough healing in these many years and in these many hours. I'm coming out and I'm looking at things differently. I'm focusing on other things. Because remember, what we focus on expands. So if we focus on lack, this is not enough, this is not enough, this is not enough. It's the universe is going to give you more evidence that no matter what you do, it's not enough.

Johnna 41:30

No, I like that. And also, like, even I guess outside of you, it would be anybody else too. Like, if we're focusing on like what someone else isn't doing, instead of focusing on what they are doing for us, we're just gonna keep focusing on that lack versus what they are.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

1,000%. 1000%. Absolutely. I have some really close friends, some best friends that show up in a way um that I want. There are some people that don't show up in a way that I really want, but they have other things that they bring to the table.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Right. So I can either focus on what they don't give me, or I can focus on what they do give me. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. When I do focus on what they give me, that expands and holds capacity for more that they can give me. True. I don't know if you know this, but it's like you can't have it all. I mean, no, you can have it all, but you can't have it all at the same time.

Johnna 42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

That's really powerful.

Johnna 42:25

Yeah. Because I do have this friend where like we talk um about kind of this similar situation where um we butt heads a lot because I'm we're total opposites. And I'll be like, Well, you're not doing this, but I appreciate what you do do. And I try to like not criticize or make them feel poorly about, but now that we're having this conversation, because he would always be like, No, you are criticizing me all the time. It's like this long laundry list of things that I'm not doing, and I'd be like, No, that's not what I'm doing. I'm just trying to share my emotion. But now that you're putting it in this perspective, I'm like, Oh, maybe I owe them an apology. Because I never had this thought process of like just because I'm saying I'm lacking this, that I'm focusing so much on it versus like I do see the good, but I'm not focusing on it.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Yeah, absolutely. And remember, what you focus on is what takes the driver's seat in your life.

Authenticity, Boundaries, And Acceptance

Johnna 43:18

No, that makes sense. So I guess I'm gonna apologize to my friend. Do you think that like having all this um self-awareness and all the things that we're doing can kill authenticity in people?

SPEAKER_02 43:31

Absolutely, because people are just who they are, right? It's I'll give you an example. My father is naturally very humorous, he's very open and straightforward, he has zero chill and zero filter, right? And if he were to label himself as, oh, I'm um, you know, I'm narcissistic because I'm only talking about myself, or if he were to label himself as, oh, I have this great sense of humor, so I always have to always. Have to uphold this conversation with humor. Like if he were to do that, he's not present.

Johnna 44:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

He's not just showing up and cracking a joke or making fun of or making fun of his friend. Right? That that's authenticity. Right. And it does kill authenticity because again, you're now focused on who should I be so that I diagnose myself or or society gives me a label versus can I just show up as to what's coming up right now?

Johnna 44:28

No, yeah. I'm trying to like word the question that I want to have because that makes completely sense. Um because like I like how you said that about your dad and stuff because I used to do that, and and I know you know that in our sessions, like I used to do that in like friendships and stuff. I'd be like, oh, I'm to this or I'm too that or I'm too this, and like couldn't just be a person. I would always constantly be mad at my personality because somebody didn't like it, or somebody didn't do this, or somebody pointed out the negative aspects of it when there were so many other positives about it that I genuinely liked about it. But whether that be, for example, I'm too loud sometimes. Like I get I get super loud. And people like I had friends in college that would be like, gosh, you're just so loud. And I'd be like, Oh, okay, oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Like, and then becoming super hyper aware of how loud I was being like kind of killed the vibe for me.

unknown 45:19

Yeah.

Johnna 45:20

And then I would have to constantly monitor it because usually when I'm getting louder, it's like I'm excited about something, or you know, that's just I'm just a loud person and I get super excited and whatnot. So I that just I like how you this is always therapy with you and me when we do a podcast because it's like I'm over here sitting like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if I'm getting something out of it, I know these listeners are for sure.

SPEAKER_02 45:43

Yeah, no, I'm telling you, and it does kill it because once again, you're in in that mode of the mind rather than being in the body and just enjoying someone's company for whatever it is. We have I have this uh friend, and I God, I hope she's not listening to this. It's her entire personality is complaining about her work. Yeah, that's her personality. That used to be mine, yeah. And you know, that's her personality. And uh we were joking about it, and I've made jokes to her about it. It's not that I'm talking shit behind her back, I've told this to her on her face that oh my god, you're always complaining about work, but it's not a complaint, it's a joke. I'm making fun of her, and she laughs about it, and she'll still complain tomorrow. Yeah, it's just her way of getting things out, it's just her way of talking. You know, she's very fast when she talks, she doesn't process that much when she fasts, and she's just like getting all the information out at one time, and you know, maybe she has ADD, whatever it is, but it's not a problem to be fixed. Sometimes you just have to accept a person, accept a person for who they are instead of trying to diagnose or fix just because you are uncomfortable with that.

Johnna 46:52

And it's again asking or somebody's pointed out that they're uncomfortable with it, so then it makes you uncomfortable with it. And now we gotta fix it and we gotta diagnose it and we gotta figure out why we're like this.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Exactly. And this is why I love this is why I love the word boundary for certain reasons, and I also hate it for certain reasons because I feel like people use it as a crutch when there is an ounce of discomfort, yeah. When there's any discomfort, they'll be like, oh, but that's my boundary, and I don't want to, I don't want you to do that, and that's my boundary, and I don't want you to talk about that. Uh that's my boundary, I don't want you to be too loud. Uh, that's you're uncomfortable, so regulate yourself with your discomfort because you're asking a fish to climb a tree. You would never do that with animals. We never do that with animals. We want to ask a tiger to be a rat or a rat to be a bird. We don't do that, but somehow with human beings, yes, these titles and these diagnoses are good and they give us self-validation and tools, but too much of this can also, once again, not learn to see the differences and appreciate that we are different. Everybody is so different.

Surviving Versus Thriving Mindset

Johnna 47:57

Have one more question for you. Yeah. How do you know when you've moved from surviving into uh truly living and thriving?

SPEAKER_02 48:08

I think surviving would be reading every book that is out there about what you could be, taking every personality test every week to find out what you are, never ending the journey, going to multiple therapy sessions a week, never feeling like I'm good enough, like I'm enough right here. I've done so much work, this is enough, and just not being happy, just not being content, right? Not being content, not being present. I think happy is exaggerated. Let me just say present, not being present and not being content. That to me is survival, right? Yeah, actually living your life means you're going out, you're eating, you're working out, you're moving your body, you're catering to your needs, you have a community of people, you show up just how you are, they show up just they are, and nobody's perfect and understanding that you're not perfect, they're not perfect, and we still coexist and we acknowledge each other's differences and we learn and grow. Now that is genuinely a person being here and present and growing and happy, rather than you see, none of these things and just hyper-fixating and going into that state where nothing, I'm not good enough, and I'm an I have to keep working on myself in a negative way, not in a positive way.

Johnna 49:29

Right. No, I agree. And like the more uh I'm starting to like lean into faith more and like read and stuff, like going down that track. And I I have been very hyperficating and intellectualizing a lot of things in my past, still do. I'm not out of it yet. I'm trying to work on it, especially after this podcast. Um, but something I heard someone say like you can't have faith and fear in the same heart. Because if you truly have faith, then you can't fear. So you really shouldn't fear if someone um doesn't like your personality or doesn't like something that you quote unquote need to work on. And so, like the more like in everything in the right timing, right? This podcast today, I needed it. Like I needed it more than I even realized. Like I knew we were doing it. I was like, Oh, I'm so excited about it. But then after like actually sitting here talking, I was like, oh, that was the perfect timing that I needed that in my life. And so, like, the more we can stop trying to control, even control who we are, even control our emotions. Like, obviously, if you got some bad stuff that you need to work through, work through it. Yeah, but we're talking about like when it's like you're just chill, you're cool, but now the world's telling you fix more, do more, do this, do that.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Yeah, so that's what you also remember when somebody constantly tells you that you have something to fix, they're actually projecting something in their reality. So they're probably in the journey of constantly fixing themselves, and that's what's reflecting. They're in the journey of not accepting who they are, so they can't accept anybody around them. Agree. And I actually know somebody like that who continuously finds faults with everybody that they interact with because they are not happy with themselves. So it's always a mirror, it's always a projection. So you always also want to like watch that, right? If somebody's calling you out all the time, you also want to be like, are they happy with themselves? Are they content? Or are they calling themselves out too? And that's that's their external projection.

Johnna 51:27

And something like we've all got to learn as humans is like, we all obviously we try to be people pleasers and we want people to like us. But at the end of the day, the people who accept your faults, your flaws, all these things about you, they truly want to be in your life. And they will like not saying that they're gonna be okay with how you speak or things like that, but like they're still gonna genuinely be like, okay, you know, let's talk through this. Where can we compromise? Where can we do these things to be in your life?

SPEAKER_02 51:52

So I think that we have to stop fearing losing people in our lives because we should definitely stop fearing losing people because when we morph ourselves too much to retain them, then we're living in an authentic life.

Johnna 52:05

Agreed. But no, I loved this so much. There's so much more on these questions that I have for you, but I know we try to cap it in an hour, so we're gonna have to do a part two. That's just what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 52:15

Let's do we'll definitely do there is so much to dive into this journey of self-awareness, how it can be useful, where it's not useful, how it shows where you're avoiding the actual healing and things like that. So there is definitely more to talk about it because we're in that era of social media where everybody and everybody's dad is a narcissist or has borderline personality disorder. So um, let's stop diagnosing, guys. Let's start healing, let's start coming into our bodies, let's start sitting with the discomfort instead of pointing fingers at other people. It's not their job to constantly fix your triggers. If it's showing up for you, it's your job to look at it, check it out, and see what's going on. That's it. On that note, we will be back for part two. Thank you so much for tuning in.

Johnna 52:57

All right, guys, until next time. Bye.